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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Protecting Epic brand by NOT renting cameras at sub-market rates

It's been proven that bottom feeders stay on the bottom and those that rented their R1's for low $$ don't have the $$ to pay their mortgages and even less $$ to buy an Epic. There are plenty of people out there that should take a class or two in basic business economics. There's a huge difference in making money and being profitable, many don't know the difference.
 
A prime factor in rental rates is location. What may go for $500 a day in LA or NYC will only go for $300 a day in the middle of Kansas. Rates are mainly made up to fit the market they are in. I know if I tried to charge LA rental rates on a lighting console here in PA it would sit in the warehouse. While I do think that owners should not undercut themselves, they also have to make sure that the gear is out there and making money.
 
True, but can be the opposite effect. If there is only one Red in town it will probably go for a lot more than in LA! Supply and demand, if there is little supply, demand goes up.

Ben Coleman said:
A prime factor in rental rates is location. What may go for $500 a day in LA or NYC will only go for $300 a day in the middle of Kansas. Rates are mainly made up to fit the market they are in. I know if I tried to charge LA rental rates on a lighting console here in PA it would sit in the warehouse. While I do think that owners should not undercut themselves, they also have to make sure that the gear is out there and making money.
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Isn't talking about inflating the rental price to keep the riff-raff (aka me) out totally contrary to what Red is trying to do?

Von Thomas said:
Even 5DMKII's are holding their rental price, and they cost $2,400.00, and rent for $175.00 per day.
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Or you could get it for $38/day AT MOST from lensrentals.com...
 
mansh singh said:
Whoa $200/uSd man i thought competition was stiff in India but still R1 goes for $400/usd per day , and it includes only hardware nothing else.
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in my market, I don't think there were cameras renting for that low but I have heard of that in other markets.
 
Ben Coleman said:
A prime factor in rental rates is location. What may go for $500 a day in LA or NYC will only go for $300 a day in the middle of Kansas. Rates are mainly made up to fit the market they are in. I know if I tried to charge LA rental rates on a lighting console here in PA it would sit in the warehouse. While I do think that owners should not undercut themselves, they also have to make sure that the gear is out there and making money.
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Quite the opposite here. I usually talk to a NY or LA producers that always say that they can get it for half price there.
 
Von Thomas said:
If this market is not careful, the Epic will fall the way of the RED One and RED MX. too many people are flooding the market with Epics already, and it's a renters market. Is this what you want?

Even 5DMKII's are holding their rental price, and they cost $2,400.00, and rent for $175.00 per day. Original RED's cost $60,000 (w/package). and rent for less that $400.00 per day. RED costs 25 times more money, yet may rent for just 2.5 times the rental of a 5D.

Von

Von
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Well not everywhere. Here in Montreal $700 a day is a steal, no lenses. Less than that is rarely seen, and even that is very hard to find.
 
George Butterfield said:
People are free to rent for whatever they want, people are free to work for whatever wages they want. If you're doing nothing and you charge $100/day to DoP with your Epic that's your business, (or non-business). The way to protect the Epic brand is to produce good video, not by restricting availability. Water seeks it's own level, for some Directors I work cheap, for others I won't work for any price. I can make far more money renting out my backhoe than I will ever make by renting out a camera.
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Actually what you say is not true. There are unions and the minimum wage to protect people from themselves and exploitation. In many markets minimum prices are enforced in, shall we say, other ways.
 
Not everyone is looking to actually pay their camera off with rentals. I'll happily rent my camera to people I trust (and are insured) at whatever I determine doesn't lose me money on the transaction. I want the camera for me, if it makes some money that's just gravy.
 
Seems kind of weird to tell people not to undercut other people, isn't business sort of a cut throat zone? I mean think of it this way, we can discuss this now with M users, cool fine. Then the flood of X's, EPIC-S and S35s, FF35s the list goes on...come out
People start under cutting to get into the market in order to attract customers,
You then end up with a pricing issue, those that have loyal customers are ok but some don't and need to battle with lower prices...

No matter what is said and discussed now there will always be people that come in and undercut. That is where people will then go and in order to bring some customers back they would cut their prices lower then before...

Though Gavin's idea would work fine for those that don't lower their prices and all, I mean if you aren't looking to make money from your camera, your fine renting it out to whoever, you can always maintain a certain price and cut it for student productions or friends and so on...
but your price would otherwise be rock steady cause it's not like your surviving just off camera rentals...
 
My favorite is people that have a crappy owner/operator package, and call me to fill in the gaps. I've gotten calls to rent a single cable, a pair of longer rods, one extra CF card...

Or if they get a "real" job and have to rent "real" lenses and accessories, they complain about the rental cost and ask for a discount. Thanks, but no thanks.
 
By the time Stage 2 ships, Epic rental prices will be way down for a few reasons: Epic M's will have taken the initial bulk of early full rate rentals and the saturation of Alexa's will also create more downward pressure. Right now in NYC, an Epic body is going for about 1600.00-1800/day, thereabouts. By the time Stage 2 is complete, I estimate you won't get much more than what you'd get for a R1 about a year ago (8-900 day). The M program as good as it is for Red will have definitely taken a chunk out of rentals for Stage 2. Only wish we knew about the M option before opting for Stage 2. Our company right now is seriously considering selling our Stage 2 option and R1 Body to finance either an M or an Alexa to hedge against the more than likely depressed rentals of Stage 2 Epics. Definitely got blindsided by this one.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Actually what you say is not true. There are unions and the minimum wage to protect people from themselves and exploitation. In many markets minimum prices are enforced in, shall we say, other ways.
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Yes, and you too can join your local camera union as a DP/Operator for the paltry sum of $13000 USD!

They don't guarantee work, and they don't even help you find it. They do take part of all your wages. They do offer insurance, but you have to pay in 100%.

Its quite a big difference from my grandfather and brother in laws experiences in the Operating Engineers and Ironworkers locals.

Oh and minimum wage ... you know how most folks get around minimum wage laws? Easily. There are a huge number of exemptions, including, "Executive, administrative, and professional employees (including teachers and academic administrative personnel in elementary and secondary schools), outside sales employees, and certain skilled computer professionals" and seven other exemptions. Guess what ... we are all covered here.

There are another 8 exemptions that exclude overtime pay requirements, specifically including broadcast engineers and movie theater employees.

In 2009 2.6 million Americans earned less than the minimum wage. Overall 4.9% of the US workforce earned the minimum wage or less.

I'm not saying that this is ideal Rob, but let's not act like something else is true either- we are not nearly as well protected as you assert.
 
Max Fischer said:
My favorite is people that have a crappy owner/operator package, and call me to fill in the gaps. I've gotten calls to rent a single cable, a pair of longer rods, one extra CF card...

Or if they get a "real" job and have to rent "real" lenses and accessories, they complain about the rental cost and ask for a discount. Thanks, but no thanks.
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I've been likely to be that guy.

Now, I'll try even harder not to be.
 
Seems alot of the question got lost in basic economic ideals (really basic)!. Its was a question of protecting a brand, and not whether or not you get, want, or need to get a rate of return on your investment. Seems alot of opinions about the camera rental business is solely bases on the most elementary economic theories that exist "supply and demand".
IMHO i think its bullshit!!! If jim jannard made a race car that ousted farrari but "decided" to sell it for much less than a farrari then in essence you deem it to be less valuable than a farrari???? wrong!!! The fact that its being seen like this only has one sector of the business smiling like chesire cat and thats PRODUCTION and they are playing all of us against each other and degrading the Brand that Jim and Co have worked so hard to give you all. That said, Jim has givin us a farrari killer and the fact that he decided to make it affordable is no indication of its Value..."they cant get 5k , 4k , or Framrates any other way, so why treat like they can????And that we should adhere to the old rules of 100days to amortize a givin item to indicate a rental price i believe to be another antiquated notion.

Just saying...
 
The real threat to the epic brand is the number of 4th rate red rental kits out there that are about to morph into 4th rate Epic rental kits. I often share the AC's sheer horror when one of these things rolls on to set in their pick and pull peli case kitted out with second tier aks. The unfortunate reality is at the end of the day the people who have to work with these tools remember their negative experiences as a red problem rather than a vendor problem. They remember that the camera is a hassle to work with, they remember that red has back focus problems, they remember that red has heat issues, they remember that red has shit battery plates resulting in power issues, they remember 90 second restarts. It takes a regular additional investment of time and aftermarket gear to mitigate some of the inherent weaknesses of the red and make the red a machine that is a bulletproof tool that can survive the rigors of a rental environment. Unfortunately, there are many individual owner/vendors (and a few institutional vendors) who are unwilling to make the additional investment. I suspect this will hold true for many as we transition to the epic.
 
I guess its good news then that EPIC seems to be welcomed so positively...even more then the R1, barely have heard much negative about it...minor bits and pieces but a firmware upgrade fixes it and thats about it...
so hopefully people will know that a faulty EPIC is down to a bad vendor rather then a bad camera...
 
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