Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Looks...

Be warned that the looks are only an approximation of what you can get in post.

While your argument holds some water, still, this is not in contradiction with what Jim tries to say. This is a common issue in engineering and the standard approach is to solve it by iteration.

In tangible words, one creates first a look in RCX, which is, as you say, an approximation of what the image will eventually be. But, the keypoint is, it's a rather good approximation. So, after processing the file, if one finds the approximation wasn't precisely what he or she wanted, then one can go back and finetune the look. Thereafter one iterates until the end result is satisfactory.

And now, after this process one can exploit the look file with confidence. The key point is, although the preimage in RCX is not precisely the end result, it is close enough, implying if one wants to make further changes to an existing (iterated) look file, RCX is able to reveal in which direction the end result will go. Consequently, the user can be confident on what he or she will gain.

For another example of such a conceptual approach, just think of driving a car. If you turn the steering wheel, the car seldom goes precisely into the direction the steering wheel "points to". Instead, there is a feedback loop and the driver subconsiously makes some minor corrections every time when turning the wheel. This is why driving in the winter is more challenging than driving in the summer time. In the winter the convergence of the iteration takes more cycles. But still, one would not argue the steering wheel is only an approximation of setting the direction.
 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that REDCINE-X is probably the single most important RED tool next to the camera. For big jobs and little jobs. It was instrumental on every project I can think of. Knowing how to work with this tool, including Looks, is as important as learning how to work the camera. They go hand in hand. My original post isn't intended to teach anybody anything about RCX other than to inform the new RED user what a terrific and powerful tool RCX is... and what I do with Looks. Others will have a different view of how to use this tool, but useful it is... times a million.

Jim
 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that REDCINE-X is probably the single most important RED tool next to the camera. ....... Others will have a different view of how to use this tool, but useful it is... times a million.

Jim

I agree completely. I wouldn't dream of doing a job without RCX. Lots of tools are out and coming out for RED workflow, but RCX will always be one of my personal choices for the ability to allow other people, be it VFX supervisors, DPs, or even Producers be able to pull up an email with a single frame R3D and "mess" with it.
 
For big jobs and little jobs.

:-) In this scale I'm on the side of little jobs, and my experience definitely confirms the importance and usefulness of RCX. This is why when editing I keep PPro, AE, and RCX running at the same time and jump back and forth between these three.
 
Deanan mentioned that when you load a look back onto the camera (Epic) , it will read the RMD. Will it take the Lift Gamma Gain settings entirely, unlike the Red MX? Or will it only reflect FLUT, curves, exposure, color temp, etc....
 
I am sorry if I missed it but how again do I load a look from RCX into my EPIC-M?

-michael zaletel
 
Okay, am I confused or what?!?!?!?

If you doing your testing with the camera being principal photography, then you surely are going to understand how lighting reacts for your setups. During your testing, I would assume that you would define your "looks" for RCX. So If you have your looks in an XML and loaded in RCX, then when the footage comes in, you apply the look by clicking apply and your footage meta data will be adjusted for that look - therefore, your seeing what you want from the look you set during testing. If you export out the file for your hourlies to iPad etc for people to see, editorial, etc, then they will see a "look" version of the footage that was agreed before you started shooting. If the director / DP changes that look later on, you would just go back to the original R3D files and change that look, all be it through RCX or your high/low end color correction tool. If that is what I am reading here from Jim, then applying a look is a click of a button? Seems easy for any production and is a seconds job.

Or am I totally off the mark?
 
RAW + Look = everyone is happy. RAW + changed (improved) Look = everyone is happier. Looks = non-destructive = very good thing.

Jim

Okay, am I confused or what?!?!?!?

If you doing your testing with the camera being principal photography, then you surely are going to understand how lighting reacts for your setups. During your testing, I would assume that you would define your "looks" for RCX. So If you have your looks in an XML and loaded in RCX, then when the footage comes in, you apply the look by clicking apply and your footage meta data will be adjusted for that look - therefore, your seeing what you want from the look you set during testing. If you export out the file for your hourlies to iPad etc for people to see, editorial, etc, then they will see a "look" version of the footage that was agreed before you started shooting. If the director / DP changes that look later on, you would just go back to the original R3D files and change that look, all be it through RCX or your high/low end color correction tool. If that is what I am reading here from Jim, then applying a look is a click of a button? Seems easy for any production and is a seconds job.

Or am I totally off the mark?
 
RAW + Look = everyone is happy. RAW + changed (improved) Look = everyone is happier. Looks = non-destructive = very good thing.

Thanks Jim - seems easy to me - so what's the issue people are concerned about??? ;-)

Okay - so one click to apply a look hardly seems like a task whether your on a BIG Hollywood budget or a small no-budget production - you can still get the result.

I think this is a BIG power of what RED offers, independent filmmakers can use the same camera and same tools, and same workflow as the biggest productions in the world.

Simple! One click! Look applies! Everyone happy and confident!

I would assume that when you load the LOOK into the camera as an RMD, this if for an output viewing and its not applied to the RAW file - hence no destructive?
 
Yup... pretty easy and powerful stuff.

Jim

Thanks Jim - seems easy to me - so what's the issue people are concerned about??? ;-)

Okay - so one click to apply a look hardly seems like a task whether your on a BIG Hollywood budget or a small no-budget production - you can still get the result.

I think this is a BIG power of what RED offers, independent filmmakers can use the same camera and same tools, and same workflow as the biggest productions in the world.

Simple! One click! Look applies! Everyone happy and confident!

I would assume that when you load the LOOK into the camera as an RMD, this if for an output viewing and its not applied to the RAW file - hence no destructive?
 
I don't think this really needs further reinforcement, but speaking from the perspective of a corporate film maker (somewhat under represented on this board) RCX is where the Red One bursts into life. As such, even on the smallest of our shoots - one guy with a handheld MX doing everything - RCX is right there at hand on a laptop, and the iterative interaction between camera, screen, crew and client is immensely valuable. In the corporate world more than any other there is a lack of trust and understanding in the process simply through unfamiliarity, so clear client visualisation in the moment is a huge benefit.
 
You guys are talking about having calibrated monitors like it's a seat on the space shuttle...?

I don't get it.

I wouldn't dare do *any* part of *any* project without knowing my monitors were true. How could you?

It's a given that your gear be up to spec. If it's not, you don't deserve the job.
 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that REDCINE-X is probably the single most important RED tool next to the camera

That being the case, a REDCINE-X training DVD in the RED store sometime would be a certain purchase for non-REDONE owners like myself to jump in the deep end when Scarlet arrives
 
I don't think this really needs further reinforcement, but speaking from the perspective of a corporate film maker (somewhat under represented on this board) RCX is where the Red One bursts into life. As such, even on the smallest of our shoots - one guy with a handheld MX doing everything - RCX is right there at hand on a laptop, and the iterative interaction between camera, screen, crew and client is immensely valuable. In the corporate world more than any other there is a lack of trust and understanding in the process simply through unfamiliarity, so clear client visualisation in the moment is a huge benefit.

John, I would agree and from what Jim has given / told / explained, applying a look is quick, easy and painless and can only provide positivity from clients when they see early looks and helps build that confidence in you, your services and the product.
 
I'm always creating looks on set so I'm surprised to hear any kind of negativity towards doing it. I can understand the concerns about a non calibrated monitor but at the end of the day many shoots don't pass over the looks to post anyway so a lot of stuff created on set is just to push and pull the boundaries and show the DoP and Director just how much more leverage they have for their image. Even a none professionally calibrated monitor is capable of giving a good enough example of headroom and getting a look very close to the DoP's ideas. You have waveforms and histograms to highlight technicals even if the monitor isn't demonstrating the colours perfectly. In my book It's better to be able to show where something is good or bad (Even on a poor monitor) than to show nothing at all.

Paul
 
That being the case, a REDCINE-X training DVD in the RED store sometime would be a certain purchase for non-REDONE owners like myself to jump in the deep end when Scarlet arrives

Or go one a REDucation course - well worth the money, in fact I think they under charge for the amount of knowledge, experiences and contacts you make!

:-)
 
I'm always creating looks on set so I'm surprised to hear any kind of negativity towards doing it. I can understand the concerns about a non calibrated monitor but at the end of the day many shoots don't pass over the looks to post anyway so a lot of stuff created on set is just to push and pull the boundaries and show the DoP and Director just how much more leverage they have for their image. Even a none professionally calibrated monitor is capable of giving a good enough example of headroom and getting a look very close to the DoP's ideas. You have waveforms and histograms to highlight technicals even if the monitor isn't demonstrating the colours perfectly. In my book It's better to be able to show where something is good or bad (Even on a poor monitor) than to show nothing at all.

I can understand about the non calibrated monitor too. If you do some testing using a non calibrated monitor and then use that same monitor during production, then your Looks are going to be the same so, like you said, your showing the DP & Director a version of the image that they can do something about onset whilst there. Its also a guidance for the post team to say "hey, this is the look we where going for" - then run it through a big system if you have the £$£$£$£ or your simple system if you don't. - Agree you you totally.
 
Sorry to be redundant but this is not difficult. What Schwartzman and Brook's testing did early on with Spiderman led both John and I to one conclusion. That with the collaboration of Brook and RedCine X we could light by eye, turn our SSds over to Brook and feel confident that our dailies would look great. We don't spend a lot of time in Brook's DIT tent, we could spend time with our directors and with our crew and return to lighting and shooting as we had been doing with Kodak for the past 25 features.
RedCine X is quite amazing. As John said often, we now have an initial DI in the can at the end of every shoot day. It is ground breaking for us "old-time" DPs.....
 
Can you load multiple looks into Epic and switch between them on the fly?
 
I use RCX on set only to see if I have information and to shut my clients up... like so: http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/Dyn...rast_test2.mov This is one of those moments... crap contrast, concerned client, converted to happy client.... Now graded it differently again 4 days latter.

Setting an actual look on set is a no no unless you have the actual colorist on set doing a better grade than you ever will, with calibrated monitors in a dark room.

On set RCX should be used just to see if your heading in the right direction nothing more. Everyone goes oooooh aaaaah move on. You are not going to reinvent the wheel in a client tent off a 17 inche panasonic thats probably never seen a ploom gun ever,

The whole LOOK window in RSX is a ripper, I have many settings stacked up ready to go, All my tailor made LOG settings for different color temps and tints, A bunch of "pretty up the shot quick" settings for the scared clients. All running on a Laptop in real time running though a 27inche MAC LED. Playing straight off the SSD cards, seconds after shooting.

Now who cares about not having a non calibrated monitor on set, thats just rubbish, Your only grading on set for two reasons. 1. seeing if there is enough information in the shot, 2. Make the client feel good. (NOT TO MENTION THE TRANSCODING ABILITIES)
You reinvent your shots looks back at the ranch in the Telecine or edit anyway. So what's the big deal with calibrated on set monitors. Don't tell me that your final grade is judge, recorded and finalized on set for ever amen... If so, I feel sorry for you.

RED CINE X It's an invaluable on set tool. Don't ignore it.... I just cant believe RED give it away for FREE.
 
Back
Top