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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Testing EPIC-M and ALEXA - suggestions?

That test criteria is set for a TV (by today's standards) comparison. I'd downres EPIC 5K to 4K and uprez the Alexa footage to 4K and compare that.

What happens when TV goes to 4K as well? What happens to everything shot 1080P and not film? Left out of a re-releases? Many seem to forget that with TV or movies... you are shooting for today AND the future.

Jim

Dan Kanes said:
Let's assume they are using sxs prores 4:4:4:4 on the Alexa.

This is how 98% of the Alexa jobs I have done shoot.

So, for an apples to apples comparison I would do:

Prores 4444 logC on Alexa
5k 16:9 on epic. Full debayer to 1920x1080 prores 4444
Using rc2/redlogfilm. No other adjustments.

Examine log results
Grade log results
Compare

This is what I would call a super basic episodic workflow
And it is where Alexa is supposedly king of the hill right now: episodic TV
Commercials have been doing same.
Click to expand...
 
I'm with you on that Jim, believe me I don't think 1080p is "good enough" - my listed criteria is based on the notion of lowest common denominator.

Michael Bravin said this:

"Alexa is a camera for today"

That was about 9 months ago.

Today is a moving target. It becomes yesterday so quickly.
 
Dan Kanes said:
This is what I would call a super basic episodic workflow
And it is where Alexa is supposedly king of the hill right now: episodic TV
Commercials have been doing same.
Click to expand...

I suggest this every six months or so: Make a prores Red module and you can capture another market segment. Clearly Red is beginning to dominate on theatrical release, but for small screens and fast turn around, this would be a plus. For news mags and similar ENG, it would open up more options for owner operators. But perhaps that works against the Red branding, which is all about higher resolution.

It will be really interesting to learn if one can see a difference with the 4444 workflow proposed above. Even if they are indistinguishable on the small screen, Red's advantage on size and cost remains significant. I had to schlep betacams all over the world, and the Alexa looks like the same drill. (maybe that's why it's a comfortable transition for some.)
 
I recently tested some lenses (Xenars) and aside from A/B testing against superspeeds, I also shot a scene of about nine shots. I wanted to see how they perform in a real shoot situation with actors. For me that's the only way to know how much I'll like a piece of gear.

Why not shoot a scene of about nine or ten set ups? Take 1 with A camera and Take 2 with B. Something about practical scene based situations that reveal more than just chip specs but more so the whole system and which one is designed best for production. Things like size, balance, lens mount, ease of use, accessories all come into play. Not to discount an objective "imaging" test, but I feel a competent DP can get outstanding results from either. I'd be interested in what system expedites this process. Issues like how does the Bomb eyepiece facilitate your work as opposed to Arri's. Which works better on your shoulder? Etc. And then track the time it takes each to get through the entire workflow.

I'd love to see a thorough analysis of each system shooting the same scene.

Cut it together. If the results are like splitting hairs, then go with the best designed system for your style of production. If one clearly has a more pleasing image, than go with that. Unfortunately, I can't glean "pleasing" from rez or macbeth charts. But if I design a scene that covers a decent spectrum of action, angle and lenses, that will definitely tell me at the end of the day which camera I'd rather use.

I'm in a similar boat having just signed with a feature that wants to use an Alexa. While I love the camera, if that's what they're thinking, I have to weigh shooting on an Epic (if we can track one down for rent) as well. Ultimately as my show is intended for big screen, I want to test each to a film out. Let's hope they buy that.
 
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Hey Eric-

As it was raining off and on in LA today, we turned our test day into a mixer. Lots of hands on with both cameras for all involved. The cool thing was that we got a lot of great input/suggestions on how/what to test when we do. That combined with all the great input here will ensure that we have a solid approach going in when we do test (hopefully end of next week schedule permitting.)

We haven't received the update package as we can't put it on the EPIC yet (camera goes out on a job in a few days and we want the most stable build.) That was also another reason to postpone.

No word from ARRI - we will be trying to get ahold of an ARRIRAW codex for the shoot. Lots of interest today on the ALEXA front in seeing the difference between the ProRes and the Raw. Yet another reason to postpone.

As for resolution/format/settings - my take is to shoot both cameras at their fullest rez and then output to one common format/resolution and yep, then watch it on a big screen!

An aside - most exciting part of today for me (our pre-test as I'm calling it) was putting the EPIC on a ET Mantis rig, with an MMB-1, lightweight rods and a 18mm zeiss superspeed and realizing that I could run around hand-held for a good long time. The camera was balanced, lightweight and just felt right. The set-up could probably be another 4 pounds lighter as we had a large battery hanging off the back and a monitor in place of an EVF - but even with that it was awesome.
 
Justin,

Great to get your hands-on experience input. Nothing beats that.
Somehow I have a feeling that the EPIC is going to win this match :-)
 
Here's another thing to consider:

Now that Premiere Pro 5.5 is out, and it can work natively with pretty much any format you throw at it (without converting), including R3D files - I believe Justin should use it for a final grade.
That way he can use the same final grade on both cameras' footage.

NOTE: the R3D should first be opened in RCX, and be set to RedGamma2 and RedLogFilm. Then opened in PP 5.5 for final grade.
 
Eric Z said:
Here's another thing to consider:

Now that Premiere Pro 5.5 is out, and it can work natively with pretty much any format you throw at it (without converting), including R3D files - I believe Justin should use it for a final grade.
That way he can use the same final grade on both cameras' footage.

NOTE: the R3D should first be opened in RCX, and be set to RedGamma2 and RedLogFilm. Then opened in PP 5.5 for final grade.
Click to expand...
Adobe CS5.5 supports RedColor2/RedGamma2/RedlogFilm out of the gate (along with white balance picker and histogram etc). No need for RedCine-X in the mix.

Don't forget to grab the new Epic plugin update for full 5K online workflow.... :)

Cheers from Tokyo!

Paul :)
 
Justin,
Any news?
 
Hey Eric- We haven't been able to pull all the keys together due to scheduling. Hopefully mid-June.
 
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