5-BAY eSATA ENCLOSURE w/HITACHI 2TB HDs to Store/Edit RED-One footage ???

[George D.]

My question is updated from what I was asking earlier, and now pertains to the following:

Would THIS kind of set up work reasonably well:

http://www.amazon.com/G-Technology-Firewire-Interfaces-Applications-0G01793/dp/B003ZMF2N0

&

http://www.evsonline.com/g-tech-4-p...roller.html?___store=default&___store=default


I want to use this system in conjunction with my Windows7 64bit Professional PC to store and edit video footage from my new RED-One Camera. Do you see any problems with that? Do you think it will work well with the 4K Raw footage I will be storing in it?

This whole world of digital cinema storage is new to me, so any help or advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

----------------------------------

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

From the PC Pit Stop, (http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sata_port_multipliers/scsat05pm.asp), I am considering the purchase of an External 5-bay eSATA Enclosure with Port Multiplier (Part# SC-SAT05PM), and 5 Hitachi 2TB SATA-II (0F10311) Hard Drives to go with it. I also think the Silicon Image 4-Port Pcle RAID w/3124 Controller Card would be good with it too.

Never bought from PC Pitstop, so can't comment on them. As for this drive enclosure, It's a pretty generic solution and price is comparable to most others out there. It's just a port-multiplied enclosure, so it won't be that fast. Seems to be 3Gbps, which means you have a bout a maximum of 280MB/s for data-throughput through the one eSATA connection. Seeing that it's just a port-multiplied enclosure, there's no RAID functionality, that would have to come from your controller or be done in software. It's fast enough to edit from as long as you don't set your expectations too high. Given your budget restrictions, you don't have a whole lot of options. You may do better to start with one of the 4-drive solutions from G-Tech, Sonnet, LaCie, etc.. that have onboard RAID. They will be more expensive per GB, but will be a more reliable product, generally speaking. The G-Tech G-Speed Q 8TB is about $1250 and they are solid performers with onboard RAID support and good warranty. Sonnet has a Fusion model that is priced about the same with the same abilities. They both offer good eSATA cards to go along with them, or you can use several other good off the shelf cards. I know it's a bit more, but 2TB drives in a 4 or 5 drive housing it's hard to get the price down to $1K. You can hit that $1K mark if you go with 1TB HDDs, but IMO, it's not worth it to cut the capacity in half just to save $200. Likewise, going with the option from PC Pitstop, you're saving that $200 by sacrificing onboard RAID and we don't know how good their support will be if you have a problem. For what it's worth, you can assemble the equivalent buying from NewEgg, MWave and other more common vendors and maybe even save a bit more there. Looks like the equivalent HDDs from NewEgg are about $10 cheaper than PC Pitstop is showing, but then again, the price difference may account for them installing the drives in that enclosure before shipping.

I’m not sure what the FarStone DriveClone Workstation 6.01 is supposed to do, but possibly I need that too.

It's backup software. I don't see the value here. Good backup solutions are a must, but this drive enclosure is not an ideal backup solution, nor is it that great of idea to use some generic cheap-o backup app.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Generally I agree with Jeff.

Here is a link to a bit cheaper RAID capable enclosure.

http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/RAID/Desktop

Right now you can get a Hitachi 2TB 7200RPM Deskstar for around $80. I'd buy the 0TB configuration and use my own drives.

Jeff is completely right about the speed limitations of post multiplied chassis - which is what the QX2 is as well.

If you need more speed you can do rather well by using a RAID eSATA controller and building a RAID 0+5. You use the chassis built in RAID 5, and then use the RAID controller's RAID 0. My argument for using this method is that each chassis can rebuild a RAID 5 internally faster than the RAID controller can rebuild if you lose a drive on one of the RAID 0 arrays attached to it.

My "plan" is to use 4 QX2's attached to a G-Tech Raid controller. I'll use 3 QX2's in RAID 5 mode and use the G-Tech to manage a "3 Drive" RAID 0 of those systems. I'll use the fourth port of the G-Tech to store an eSATA enclosure (probably a QX2 for portability) that I use as a JBOD for storing near line files - like my B roll library, and for storing finished client projects . I can build a OS managed Software RAID 0 on the JBOD enclosure if I need more than 3TB to store a project.

Internal to the Mac I have a 2 drive RAID 0 I use for "Video Work" A single disk I use for my personal data, and a single disk I use for the system and applications - and anything that Apple makes me "fight" to change from its default of the user directory on the system drive.

This configuration is fast on a budget, and has some failure resistance - but its still pretty brittle. The Three drive RAID 0+5 can theoretically reach up to 900MB/s, and practically can reach something like 700MB/s. (Not a test result, an estimate based on observation of similar systems.) You'll have a formatted capacity near 18TB, but I recommend never filling it past 70% or about 12.5TB

So, while you get performance on a budget - you REALLY need another backup solution. LTO has been discussed to death elsewhere.

If you are scrimping pennies like that I recommend a separate RAID 5 port multiplied enclosure, again like a QX2 that can serve as fast backup. If you have a data set that fits in that capacity (about 9TB when set up for RAID 5 with 3TB drives) then its a start ... and so much better than NO backup.

Remember though that a RAID 5 is NOT supposed to be a backup medium. You have to keep a lot more copies in rotation and copy often. As you make a system like this more suited for backup, you drive prices way up. Thus LTO makes more and more sense.

There is a hidden up front cost ... you need to buy enough drives when building the system to handle any failures. Cheap RAID enclosures are notorious for not rebuilding properly if you don't have exact hardware matches for your disks. 16 drives I'd estimate for a three drive RAID where each drive is actually a 4 drive RAID 5. Enough for 3 ready spares and an extra. When you run out of these drives, you should plan on upgrading the whole array.

Its never as cheap as you really want it to be, and cutting corners takes a whole lot of effort. Also - even this setup has a lot of issues. (And I hope Jeff finds time to critique it as a budget video edit setup with Red Epic in mind.)

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

@Alexander,

Good call on the OWC unit. I completely forgot about those QX2's. I've never owned one personally, but I know a lot of people seem to like them. Generally, OWC's external storage products are pretty good.

 

[George D.]

Generally I agree with Jeff.

Here is a link to a bit cheaper RAID capable enclosure.

http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/RAID/Desktop

Right now you can get a Hitachi 2TB 7200RPM Deskstar for around $80. I'd buy the 0TB configuration and use my own drives.

Jeff is completely right about the speed limitations of post multiplied chassis - which is what the QX2 is as well.

If you need more speed you can do rather well by using a RAID eSATA controller and building a RAID 0+5. You use the chassis built in RAID 5, and then use the RAID controller's RAID 0. My argument for using this method is that each chassis can rebuild a RAID 5 internally faster than the RAID controller can rebuild if you lose a drive on one of the RAID 0 arrays attached to it.

My "plan" is to use 4 QX2's attached to a G-Tech Raid controller. I'll use 3 QX2's in RAID 5 mode and use the G-Tech to manage a "3 Drive" RAID 0 of those systems. I'll use the fourth port of the G-Tech to store an eSATA enclosure (probably a QX2 for portability) that I use as a JBOD for storing near line files - like my B roll library, and for storing finished client projects . I can build a OS managed Software RAID 0 on the JBOD enclosure if I need more than 3TB to store a project.

Internal to the Mac I have a 2 drive RAID 0 I use for "Video Work" A single disk I use for my personal data, and a single disk I use for the system and applications - and anything that Apple makes me "fight" to change from its default of the user directory on the system drive.

This configuration is fast on a budget, and has some failure resistance - but its still pretty brittle. The Three drive RAID 0+5 can theoretically reach up to 900MB/s, and practically can reach something like 700MB/s. (Not a test result, an estimate based on observation of similar systems.) You'll have a formatted capacity near 18TB, but I recommend never filling it past 70% or about 12.5TB

So, while you get performance on a budget - you REALLY need another backup solution. LTO has been discussed to death elsewhere.

If you are scrimping pennies like that I recommend a separate RAID 5 port multiplied enclosure, again like a QX2 that can serve as fast backup. If you have a data set that fits in that capacity (about 9TB when set up for RAID 5 with 3TB drives) then its a start ... and so much better than NO backup.

Remember though that a RAID 5 is NOT supposed to be a backup medium. You have to keep a lot more copies in rotation and copy often. As you make a system like this more suited for backup, you drive prices way up. Thus LTO makes more and more sense.

There is a hidden up front cost ... you need to buy enough drives when building the system to handle any failures. Cheap RAID enclosures are notorious for not rebuilding properly if you don't have exact hardware matches for your disks. 16 drives I'd estimate for a three drive RAID where each drive is actually a 4 drive RAID 5. Enough for 3 ready spares and an extra. When you run out of these drives, you should plan on upgrading the whole array.

Its never as cheap as you really want it to be, and cutting corners takes a whole lot of effort. Also - even this setup has a lot of issues. (And I hope Jeff finds time to critique it as a budget video edit setup with Red Epic in mind.)

Holy cow Alexander !!

Would you be kind enough to explain that in English? What's an OWC ?

In other words, could you condense it down a bit and tell me exactly how to do that in "simple terms", so I can put something like that together?

Thanks.

.

 

[Paul J Steinberg]

Hey George, I'm running Win7/64 and picked up this external RAID enclosure (http://mediasonicinc.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=235) for about $200 and added 4x Samsung F3 1Tb drives for about $75/ea (about 6 months ago). Works great. Has onboard RAID controller and can do almost any RAID configuration under the sun. I use this for onset data management but also hook it up to my home PC running Adobe CS5.5 with a Red Rocket card and no problem playing back 4K.

 

[George D.]

Hey George, I'm running Win7/64 and picked up this external RAID enclosure (http://mediasonicinc.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=235) for about $200 and added 4x Samsung F3 1Tb drives for about $75/ea (about 6 months ago). Works great. Has onboard RAID controller and can do almost any RAID configuration under the sun. I use this for onset data management but also hook it up to my home PC running Adobe CS5.5 with a Red Rocket card and no problem playing back 4K.

Would I have to have a Red Rocket card? I really don't have the money left for it right now. Hopefully in the future.

One thing I don't understand; how do I hook it up for a RAID 5?

I apologize for my ignorance, but Red data storage is new to me.

Thanks.

.

 

[Christopher Barrett]

Hey George,
The Red Rocket is not a Raid card but is used for accelerating transcodes and on screen playback of R3D's. It's sort of like a video card. Storage is totally independent of that. Also, I happen to have a Raid box like the one you're talking about.... holds 5 drives, uses port multiplying. Allows you to build a nice set of redundant drives for data protection. It's not a speed demon and I prefer internal raids to edit from... it is fast enough to shuttle data back and forth without too much aggravation.

Bottom line... if you have enough free bays in your tower I'd definitely go with internal units. Take the money you would have put into that enclosure and buy big Raid Class drives.

Cheers,
CB

 

[George D.]

Hey George,
The Red Rocket is not a Raid card but is used for accelerating transcodes and on screen playback of R3D's. It's sort of like a video card. Storage is totally independent of that. Also, I happen to have a Raid box like the one you're talking about.... holds 5 drives, uses port multiplying. Allows you to build a nice set of redundant drives for data protection. It's not a speed demon and I prefer internal raids to edit from... it is fast enough to shuttle data back and forth without too much aggravation.

Bottom line... if you have enough free bays in your tower I'd definitely go with internal units. Take the money you would have put into that enclosure and buy big Raid Class drives.

Cheers,
CB

I am sooooooooo damned confused now, I'm about to give up.

We do TV documentaries, and are not under tight deadlines with clients looking over our shoulders. I just need a way to store, protect, edit, save, and backup the footage we get from our Red One. I just want to be able to have backups of all the raw footage, another place to store the best takes, and another place to store the rough edits, etc.

RAID this, and RAID that. I have no idea what RAID is anyway. And, what the benefits of RAID 5 is over RAID 0, or any other RAID for that matter. Where IS the RAID? In the storage box or in each separate hard drive.

My entire career has been in film. I'm a shooter and a DP, not some damn computer expert. This is all very frustrating and confusing AND expensive.

What to do? That IS the question.

.

 

[Christopher Barrett]

I feel your pain man. For starters... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

RAID stands for "Redundant Array of Independent Drives" and uses either a hardware or software controller to trick the computer into thinking of multiple hard drives as ONE single drive. RAID 0 means that all drives in the RAId (however many you choose to use) all get a portion of the data being written. So....when you save a file it is saved to (for example) 3 drives at once instead of one, each getting a piece of the file. This speeds up transfers dramatically but is dangerous. If one single drive fails then the whole thing goes down. In RAID 5 (and I may get the particulars wrong)... you basically have two sets of RAID 0's that are fast but also safer because they are "Mirrored". There are many iterations of RAID Formats which throws more confusion onto the fire.

Basically, the only reason we use RAIDS is because single drives aren't really fast enough to work with HD video, let alone 4k.

RAIDs may be internal (setup inside your computer) or they may live in external enclosures.... but then you have to be careful about what sort of connection you use, as that becomes the limiting factor.

There is no magic bullet for storage... you're gonna have to study all this a bit and figure out what best meets your needs/budget.

If I can answer anything else, feel free.

CB

 

[George D.]

I feel your pain man. For starters... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

RAID stands for "Redundant Array of Independent Drives" and uses either a hardware or software controller to trick the computer into thinking of multiple hard drives as ONE single drive. RAID 0 means that all drives in the RAId (however many you choose to use) all get a portion of the data being written. So....when you save a file it is saved to (for example) 3 drives at once instead of one, each getting a piece of the file. This speeds up transfers dramatically but is dangerous. If one single drive fails then the whole thing goes down. In RAID 5 (and I may get the particulars wrong)... you basically have two sets of RAID 0's that are fast but also safer because they are "Mirrored". There are many iterations of RAID Formats which throws more confusion onto the fire.

Basically, the only reason we use RAIDS is because single drives aren't really fast enough to work with HD video, let alone 4k.

RAIDs may be internal (setup inside your computer) or they may live in external enclosures.... but then you have to be careful about what sort of connection you use, as that becomes the limiting factor.

There is no magic bullet for storage... you're gonna have to study all this a bit and figure out what best meets your needs/budget.

If I can answer anything else, feel free.

CB

Thank you for your kindness Christopher.

It looks like I would definitely want a RAID 5 system, because the kind of shots we do CANNOT be repeated if they are lost, like having an actor do a re-shoot.

Now, the question is which will serve our purposes and fit in our budget as you say. I think I can stretch the budget to accommodate the G-Tech G-Speed Q 8TB for about $1250.oo that Jeff talked about in the first answer. But, even on their website I cannot discover if that is a RAID 5 or not. And, in the future if I was able to afford more, couldn't I just get another one and stack 'em?

Also, with all this array stuff, what would be wrong with just downloading the info onto two or three separate external HDs? I mean, why do they have to be "arrays" at all?

.

 

[Christopher Barrett]

YES... I wouldn't advise anyone to work on RAID 0. I do have one set of SSD's in RAID 0 which are extremely fast (550 mb/sec) but I only use that for very temporary stuff on redundant files.

The RAID type is not built into the device, you can specify that when you initially format the RAID. The only thing that's a drag about the G Tech is the maximum throughput of 220mb/sec via eSATA. If you configure it for RAID 5, I'm guessing that throughput may drop in half. I'm not exactly sure about this and maybe Jeff can clarify... I cant' really say how fast you need your I/O to be to make life painless but whenever I look at my R3D's off of single drives or slower RAID's I lose sound sync and have to drop to half or quarter debayer playback.

That setup may be fine to start with but keep in mind that in RAID 5 your 8TB will drop to 4TB or less. Hopefully by the time you fill that you can afford another box.... and Yes, you can always stack more of those up.... then what's crazy is you could actually RAID Sets of those boxes for faster speed.

It's a headfull aint it?

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Holy cow Alexander !!

Would you be kind enough to explain that in English? What's an OWC ?

In other words, could you condense it down a bit and tell me exactly how to do that in "simple terms", so I can put something like that together?

Thanks.

.

OWC = Other World Computing

The QX2 RAID enclosure I linked to above is made by that company.

Aside from that its pretty basic stuff.