Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Current EPIC rental rates in LA and elsewhere.

Rich Schaefer said:
I have an Epic! Feel free to contact me.

I have seen a published rate (not by me) in the range of $1850 for body, a bit of memory and basic aks. Please consider this more of a list price. Also, please consider, the demand/rarity of the camera. There may be an opportunity for a discount and perhaps not due to demand. The pricing has now been removed, probably from reading threads like this. I recommend contact others or me to get a price and or work it out....

Honestly, it's not so much the price as just finding one that is available, it's the most bad-ass tiny little super-computing-mo-fo going! The best analogy I can give is that shooting Epic is like shooting broadband everything else is like dial-up (including 35mm, and I have $300k of film cameras that are larger and have more mass). Once you taste it, its real hard to go back!

Prost,
Rich
Click to expand...

AGREED RICH!
 
dino g said:
i would urge any member of this forum to read the document presented in the link provided below prior to discussing pricing in general and particularly in LA. I can tell you that the government will use this forum as evidence in any action.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title7/ant00008.htm

you can then ask...how do you know this dino, are you a lawyer? what gives you the insight to make such claims....

read this...

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k05j7479w0j47772/

for those of you not interested enough to follow the link, the document makes the argument that one man lead the fight to breakup AT&T in the 70's ( the largest application of the sherman antitrust laws in modern history) ...his name was Manley Irwin, a college professor at the University of NH. I spent years with him and in his many classes focusing on antitrust. He is a legend in the antitrust world and he drilled this stuff into my head 25 years ago...

for all of our good, do your research, set a price, stick to it or negotiate it, but don't talk about it here.

dino


follow-up...

how important is this stuff you ask...


well about 5 years after at&t split up the modern cell phone was truly born, with in ten years there was a critical mass of subscribers and now 30 years on, we cant live without them and the other telecommuncations miracles that have transpired in the last 30 years. if you were old enough to be on a 1200 baud modem and use punch cards, you will understand.
Click to expand...

Dino,

Thank you for the links you posted. They are definitely good reading, but I would like to call out a key distinction that may not have been highlighted in the paragraphs you wrote.

As with the Sherman Act, and others, the key "litmus test" that DOJ looks to is "restraint of trade". In economic terms, you must understand the distinction between monopolies, oligopolies, "purely competitive", and "monopolisticily competitive" markets. Without getting into any more of an applied microeconomic theory discussion, Red Camera rentals exhibit characteristics of the later two market types.

In the link you posted, the paragraphs describe the complexities of the law... The fact that all competitors charge the same price, or use the same terms of sale, is not, by itself, evidence of a price-fixing conspiracy because similar prices may in fact be the outcome of competition.

American Airlines and the case you provided (ATT) are the two classic business school examples used to illustrate the nuances of the various facets of the Sherman Act.

With relation to the number of global cameras on the market (Red Ones and now Epics), the markets in which they are located (Houston, LA, NY, etc) and the fluid nature of supply and demand of rentals during various times of the year, our lawyers have assured us that the probability of DOJ looking after this board as a restraint of trade is very, very low.

I only point this out to offer another perspective and it seems a majority of posters in this thread disagree with your position.

Finally, I personally believe that use of this board for getting quotes would actually do the opposite, ie. LOWER rental rates, all things being equal. This board eliminates "imperfect information" (a specific economic term), and therefore moves prices lower as supply and demand reaches equilibrium.
 
I've got one available, setup and ready to work. Price would depend on what you take, and for how long. List prices are on www.houseofsmooth.com we'll price to be competitive, but not interested in getting into a race to the bottom with anyone. It will pay itself off on our own jobs. Really low budget rentals have not proven to be worth the hassle !

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
www.houseofsmooth.com
 
Matt Uhry said:
I've got one available, setup and ready to work.
Click to expand...

That's really smooth, dude. ;)

I've got an Epic-M inbound sometime soon... Hopefully. There seems to have been a whole bunch of them shipped last week and now a lull of some kind. As for rentals and rates, I haven't decided yet if I'm going to rent it.
 
Erich Roland said:
Epic-M base kit 1400 (bomb view not in yet)

http://www.dc-camera.com/red_epic.htm
Click to expand...

Are you crazy...? You want to see what happened to the original redone but months earlier.

Seriously ALL EPIC-M OWNERS IT IS YOUR RIGHT TO RENT YOUR CAMERA FOR WHATEVER RATE YOU SEE FIT, BUT SERIOUSLY CHARGING LESS TO JUST GET THE JOB DOES NOTHING FOR YOU! you will find your clients only care about your rates until the next owner op can give them a cheaper rate. Once this happens...bye bye trusted client. One of the biggest things that I saw in the owner op RED market was a price war to "get the job" many would give their rate for super cheap just to land the client. DOING THIS DOES NOTHING FOR YOU BUT SET A PRECEDENT FOR BEING THE CHEAP GUY IN TOWN. Please, the one thing that the Alexa has going for it is that it rents for a good day rate and it stays that way because there are not tons of owner operators who are in a bidding war to JUST GET THE F***ING JOB.

Sorry, stepping off full apple...but jeez its a better camera than the Alexa it should rent for more....have some self dignity for gods sake....

That said I have a great Epic-M package with all the bells and whistles at a great rate that I think many will find fair and will pay it to get their hands on such an amazing image capture device.
 
Eric, it seems to me that all the listed rates are roughly the same , once you factor in memory, lcd, evf, etc. Everyone seems to have a different combination of what they include in the quote and what they list separately.
 
Also, I'm not sure which features have been enabled recently (since I don't own one) but I'm guessing that could have a little bit of an impact on rentals. Granted, I know Epic-M's are working on jobs all over, just that when comparing it to the Alexa you must factor that in. Obviously, Epic is a better overall camera for most projects -- especially those requiring higher resolution or higher framerates.

So I think when the M's are fully enabled -- and before a bunch of X's hit the market -- the demand will be at it's peak and rates should be a closer match to Alexa's, despite the slightly higher Alexa price tag.
 
Last edited:
I've been in the rental game for awhile now and I watched the red ones rental rates plummet swiftly mainly due to owner operators charging pennies for their camera. You can get a complete package now in la for less than 600 bucks a day... Yes I know that just because epic is a better camera than Alexa it doesn't have to rent for more, and also the cost of alexa ownership is higher. I'm just hoping that due to epics higher cost it weeds out some people who have no idea what they have and are willing to give it out for nothin.

With that said...moving on.
 
Eric Ulbrich said:
You can get a complete package now in la for less than 600 bucks a day...
Click to expand...

Eric,

Just adding another data point to rental market dynamics. Houston has at least 10 or more R1's in the city (I think there are alot more). Panavision was renting their units out, with Panavision lens, for no less than $2500 per day in Houston. Today they are no longer in business (the Houston location).

Being careful not to confuse causality and correlation, I will say they were THE most expensive pack in the city. We also see plenty of R1 bundles around that $600 range. Most jobs in this market can't support much more.

It will be interesting to see the Epic ROI numbers over time.

The economic question is will renters "value" the "overhead" premium charged by the non-"owner operators"...? Given our 20+ years in this business, I don't think so.
 
1%?

Very round numbers.

An Optimo 24-290 costs $60k, rents for $600 a day.

An EPIC-M costs $60k, so should rent for... do the math

(modulo accessories, supply vs. demand etc. etc!!)

(yeah I know it's over-simplified; lenses have a longer shelf life than cameras and people will still want the Optimo when the EPIC is gathering dust...)

Mike
 
IMHO, with the rapid evolution of the motion camera market, a 1% day rate would be a dangerous business decision. The longer shelf life and significantly different maintenance cycle of a top quality lens yields very different math than a camera so I don't think comparing the items is valid.

FWIW I would not rent any camera for less than 2% of its current value as a "normal" day rate. As others have noted, in LA at least, most gear goes out on a 3 day week so if you start with too low of a day rate I'm not sure how you keep the lights on.

While I wish no one ill, it will be better for the health of the industry and the reputation of the RED camera products when the crazy cheap camera rentals go away. Sorry if that sounds offensive, but I have a dream of doing what I love and making a living. Just sayin'

Cheers - #19
 
Setting a value on any given camera package will always be a subjective to a certain extent. You have to ask yourself for any given project, how important are all the bells and whistles. Coming from the owner/operator position to owning a rental house, I can understand both positions. With the owner/operator camera package the cost may sometimes be less, but you often have a set list of accessories your camera crew is limited to working with. With a rental house, there is usually a more customizable camera package approach and a support team available at all times to take a call. We plan to keep our EPIC packages tailored to each production. However that said, everyone needs a starting place. We are currently offering two EPIC Base Packages. You can see more details at our website. (should be updated my tomm morning). http://www.daufenbachcamera.com. Regardless of where or how much you find an EPIC for, I hope everyone finds their way, it is no doubt an exciting time to be shooting digitally and shooting RED.
 
Hey Mods
I started this thread on the weekend, looking for a quick general answer.
thanks for the replies!

All this talk of money kind of makes me a little sick, though.
Can we close it off?

all the best.
 
Eric Ulbrich said:
Are you crazy...? You want to see what happened to the original redone but months earlier.

Seriously ALL EPIC-M OWNERS IT IS YOUR RIGHT TO RENT YOUR CAMERA FOR WHATEVER RATE YOU SEE FIT, BUT SERIOUSLY CHARGING LESS TO JUST GET THE JOB DOES NOTHING FOR YOU! you will find your clients only care about your rates until the next owner op can give them a cheaper rate. Once this happens...bye bye trusted client. One of the biggest things that I saw in the owner op RED market was a price war to "get the job" many would give their rate for super cheap just to land the client. DOING THIS DOES NOTHING FOR YOU BUT SET A PRECEDENT FOR BEING THE CHEAP GUY IN TOWN. Please, the one thing that the Alexa has going for it is that it rents for a good day rate and it stays that way because there are not tons of owner operators who are in a bidding war to JUST GET THE F***ING JOB.

Sorry, stepping off full apple...but jeez its a better camera than the Alexa it should rent for more....have some self dignity for gods sake....

That said I have a great Epic-M package with all the bells and whistles at a great rate that I think many will find fair and will pay it to get their hands on such an amazing image capture device.
Click to expand...

Eric, I fully understand your position. Rental rates always begin with a purchase price and there are rough guidelines of what the rental rate should be relative to the cost. When you add a supply vs demand factor you should be able to raise the rate. I have raised the rate to what I believe is not "too high" or "too low".... but just right for now. When the dust settles, and Epic supply equals or exceeds demand a base Epic-x kit with batts and some minimal memory, and viewer (no lenses) etc, the rate should be about 800 bucks (Epic-M maybe 75-100 more). 1400 takes all this into account, and is marked up by about 1.7x what i estimate the Epic-M rate might be a year from now (assuming the Eric-x back orders are filled in a year). I understand the pull to try and take EXTRA advantage of the supply-demand equation and everyone will have a different idea for what that timing advantage should be. Our "base kit" is also stripped down to minimum. I'm in for the long haul not for a "quick buck" and exit, and my customers need to be considered.

Having said that, these cameras are still very new to the market and if I get the idea that were lower then most rental operations I can adjust pricing at the stroke of the keyboard.

cheers, Erich
 
Rental rates will probably follow the same pattern as the R1. Real high. Then saturation levels it off to something more reasonable. Other factors to consider - updates and accessories. The MX chip definitely extended the rental life of my R1. If you have a high number don't expect to make a killing. For owner ops, we'll never be able to fully compete with a rental house, but be glad that the Reds help close the deal on a lot jobs.
 
if you don't want the price of the Epic to plummet then don't heat up the market by charging an arm and a leg. Exorbitantly high rates attract competitors who in turn drive the price down pure and simple. You can't just lay blame on the under-cutters....ask yourself what brought them to market in the first place...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top