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Apple Color Correction and Grading

J

Jed Shepherd

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Quick question in regards to color correction and grading. Without using redcinex, is it normal to do a color correction to all your clips in FCP using something like the 3 way color corrector then send to Color for a final grade? Or do people bring all clips into fcp then send to color for basic color correction, then back to fcp then back to color again? Does color import corrections done in FCP to its timeline or do you get the raw clip(not refering to red raw, just the clip as it is before FCP changed anything)?

All a bit confusing but I couldnt see editing everything then sending to color to do corrections and grading being the solution.
I dont have a working mac to test any of this at the moment so I thought I would ask on here what the normal workflow is for most people.
Thanks
 
Another question. Does log and transfer in FCP create offline files or is it still technically editing proxies? My editor wants to use the log and transfer method and im not 100% sure if that creates offline pro res files that need to be re-conformed with clipfinder?

Secondly. Dealing with VFX, im not up op using display LUT's etc, especially in AE and shake which are my compositing package choices. Would it be acceptable to export a .dpx sequence that has a gamma correction on the redlogfilm image into my chosen package and to composite using the gamma and color corrected image? I figure if i do a base color and gamma correction in color, export a .dpx sequence, then match cgi elements using cc controls within AE or shake, It should then be fine to reimport back into color afterwards to add the grade.
As i have not done this before, does fcp or color support .dpx sequences? Can fcp add a .dpx sequence into the re-conformed .r3d timeline? If not is there a free solution which will allow it to read .dpx or would i be better off working in a .tiff workflow as it might be better supported?

Im not sure if VFX are normally done in log color space but as im making a short film and not a huge feature i figure i can get away with using redlogfilm on all my shots but gamma correct the VFX footage before working on it.

Any help would be great.
 
Actually one more thing. Is it fine to edit using low res log and transfer proxies > then re-conform, make a 2k fcp sequence > import re-conformed .r3d's > scale 4k footage to 2k(not sure when this should take place, i plan on shooting 4k normally but 2k for some high speed) > send to color > Open red tab and select redcolor2 and redlog or redlogfilm. Here is where i run into the problem in my mind. Should i do gamma correction and color correction then send back to FCP then from FCP send back to color to grade? I have little color experience but I can foresee problems trying to color correct and grade within the same color project. Is there a proven workflow for this?
 
One more thing again. Does clipfinder relink your files to the .r3ds and your left with a bunch of .r3ds that are the length of your selected cuts or can it reconnect but only send straight to FCP? OR again does it only output files like pro res or image sequences etc? Im on their site at the moment but cant find much
 
You don't have to use clipfinder to do the FCP - Color workflow. In the white paper for RED FCP white paper, there is the workflow written out and it does work, it's what we use. Color is a little finicky, you need to not screw around too much and you do need to follow the instructions, but it works.
 
It seems like you're making this WAY more complicated than it has to be. Mark Toia has a really simple solution for getting r3ds through an FCP workflow: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?57924-BEST-TRANSCODE-SOLUTION-FOR-FINAL-CUT-PRO That'd be a start for you. Just keep in mind that the options he's telling you to select and what he's telling you to output are what works for him, if you feel like you need files in another format or one color space/gamma setting is better for you, awesome! Do that - it's part of the beauty of working with RED.

As for the rest - passing through AE or Shake for compositing you should do whatever works best for you and not over think it. In my mind, if you're to the point where you're ready to go in for VFX then you're probably pretty close to picture lock (at least for the scenes you're ready to start compositing on) so you may want to go ahead and send those to color for a first pass correction - put out a file that's going to give you enough information that you can put in your VFX and then bring back into FCP and send it to color with your normal footage for a final pass.

The important thing is to make your images look as beautiful as possible - most normal people aren't going to worry about how you got there. (Of course we all will, and then you can share the workflow with us if you want and we'll tell you what we learned from your workflow, and what we would have done differently and we'll all be better film makers in the end.) I will say though, that since you're not using LUTs yet you may want to go with REDgamma2 rather than REDlogFilm for your first pass just because it'll give you a more natural (accurate) gamma curve right from the get go rather than trying to guesstimate something during your composite or first pass correction. As far as I'm concerned the first LUT you should experiment on is a 1D Log to Lin LUT that will let you take advantage of REDlogFilm... but then, I'm just learning the LUT thing too so I could be wrong there :)
 
Ok i read through marks post. Still not sure on what he is doing though.
This bit. "My method is this. Transcode everything to these settings . (Via baselight, RED CINE X. etc etc etc...
SET GAMMA to : REDLOGFILM, or REDLOG,
SET COLORSPACE to: to CAMERA RGB, " is confusing me a little.

Is he saying to export from redcine-x or to use those settings in whatever your using? As in i should set those settings on my clips in color? My main concern is just color correction and color grading. Think i have the rest figured out. Is it fine to correct within fcp then just grade in color? Thats my main question. OR due to the whole accessing raw data is it best to correct in color and grade in color?
 
I assume your distinction between correcting and grading is - correcting to bring the image to normal (white balance, levels, etc...) and grading to apply some sort of look? In which case, I would never use 3-way color correcter to do this. I do know people who do, but if you're going to color anyway you may as well use the tools there to get a more accurate correction, and then just do your grading there as well.

He's saying use those settings in whatever you're using so if you're grading the r3ds in color go over to the RED tab and select those options and then apply your correction/grade.
 
Yeah. I mean correction as in matching shots within a scene. So white balance etc like you said. And grading as then doing a look. I just wasnt sure if i should do the correction bit in fcp but from your last post i think the answer is no
 
There is no reason that I can think of to do a first light in FCP before you send it to color. I would do the correction and grade in color. I wouldn't worry about how it looks sending to color, you can do it all there.
 
Jed Shepherd said:
Yeah. I mean correction as in matching shots within a scene. So white balance etc like you said. And grading as then doing a look. I just wasnt sure if i should do the correction bit in fcp but from your last post i think the answer is no
Click to expand...

Sounds like you have it exactly opposite from correct definitions- grading (as in grading your driveway) is matching and evening out the differences in exposure, color temp etc. and correction is giving a look. But at the end of the day, it's all part of the same process and those terms are completely interchangeable.
 
Hi Jake.
Dont take this the wrong way because I value your input and dont doubt what your saying seeing as your a colorist but I couldnt find any links that confirm what you said. I actually came across links that said correction was matching shots and grading was creating an overall look. I did read something though that said something about terms being crossed over from telecine timing to DI work. Either way maybe my incorrect descriptions of both earlier in the thread might have made what I was saying more confusing.

Also i am not an aspiring colorist at the moment so I have read no books on the subject which I can only assume backup 100% what you said.
 
jake blackstone said:
Sounds like you have it exactly opposite from correct definitions- grading (as in grading your driveway) is matching and evening out the differences in exposure, color temp etc. and correction is giving a look. But at the end of the day, it's all part of the same process and those terms are completely interchangeable.
Click to expand...
We never made a distinction between "grading" and "correcting" at Technicolor/Hollywood, at least not during the couple of decades I worked there.

We did have a "one-light" color correction (for DPs to see specific uncorrected changes on tests), "Best Light" dailies color correction (down-the-middle color correction with enough range to allow a final correction with out crush or clip issues), and "Final" color correction (for delivery). There were also philosophies like Encore's "VIP", essentially a flat transfer pass for negative resembling an IP, but we modified the technique to allow more correction in dailies and cut time for the final.

The Brits sometimes talk about a "technical" grade, which I think is somewhere between a one-light and a Best-light, but we're splitting hairs. In digital capture, I think it's possible to come up with something approaching a Best Light, at least to give the editor something reasonable to look at during their process in Rec709. At least there, you always have the original uncorrected files to work with for final color, with or without an on-set LUT.

Jeff Zueger said:
There is no reason that I can think of to do a first light in FCP before you send it to color. I would do the correction and grade in color. I wouldn't worry about how it looks sending to color, you can do it all there.
Click to expand...
I would be reluctant to do this, because you may wind up stomping on the image and limiting the range available in the final color-correction pass. It might work, provided the colorist approves this temporary look, reliable monitors are being used, and there's great care to avoid hitting D-Min and D-Max.
 
"Color timing" is a term traditionally used by film labs to describe the light and filter based color correction methods used in photochemical printing. "Color correction" is an American originated term used since the 1970s to describe electronic color manipulation of video images and film images transferred to video. "Grading" is a European term for the same thing, but it has been more widely adopted in recent years in the US, probably because it sounds more involved and intelligent, as all things British always seem to Americans. The same thing happened with the term "telecine operator", which became "TK operator" in the UK, and later become "colorist" in both Europe and the US when telecine operators started getting paid more and thus needed a, shall we say, more lofty title (but also because tape to tape color correction became more pervasive).
 
Jed Shepherd said:
I actually came across links that said correction was matching shots and grading was creating an overall look.
Click to expand...

Apple's FCS documentation reinforces what you are saying. It seems to be a reasonable way to define the terms in a strictly digital world. Mind you that my opinion was formed in the digital realm; I have no film experience outside of the still photography darkroom and I am not a Colorist.
 
Alexis Van Herman's excellent book Color Correction Handbook, which I've been reading over the last few months, actually does make a distinction between a "correction" and a "grade." Alexis considers a correction to essentially be one layer, while the grade is a group of corrections applied to the entire shot, and he makes a good case for his opinion.

I think it's splitting hairs, but I'd concede that the term is open to conjecture. It's also clear that there's different terms used in NY vs. LA, and different terms applied in Europe vs. the U.S. (etc.).
 
I've heard it used both ways. I, personally, use 'correction' as matching shots to each other (Correcting differences/flaws) and 'grade' as the artistic changes I make to the piece overall.
 
I'm about to supervise the grade on a feature I shot. The producer is firm that the director should be able to grade in real time and see normal motion. He wants to just grade straight from the original transcodes and just re-export some selects where the highlights clip or shadows are lost. I'm going to offer this to him this workflow as a nice compromise were we don't have to worry too much about finding selects and we can start with a more flat image. One detail is that the beginning of the film was shot on Red Mysterium. When we shot the second half months later, it was all MX. I don't think this should be a problem, but I'm curious if the workflow is exactly the same. Also, as I understand it, this is probably one of the only options I have for real time color correction in Apple color. I couldn't get specifics yet, but I'm told they have a "year old" Mac Pro, maxed out ram, with a ("top of the line") Aja Kona card, and a very fast raid. This workflow looks like my best bet for fast color correction in a film like workflow starting with a flat image. Would you all agree?
 
you are talking about .r3d in color? GPU is a big factor. Also a redrocket will help keep the frames moving realtime in color. but you will see things slow down as you add more corrections/efx to a shot...
maybe you need to consider going to a loaded davinci resolve system or something even bigger.
grading transcodes (like 1080 prores from the 4k) will give you better performance in color.
 
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