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Epic Battle of the 3D Rigs - Pro's and Cons

AnthonyFlores

AnthonyFlores

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Hi Guys,

I'm doing some research into 3D rigs, and considering investing in several later this year.

It would be exclusively for the Epic -- and the two main players seem to be the 3Ality TS5 and the ET Atom.

What I'd like to know are the respective strengths of each system are.

And of course, let's keep the discussion respectful and courteous. I know some people have alliances to each brand,
and that's totally cool. This is not to bash or put down anyone. Just looking for an exploration of the differences in each
rig and people's thoughts. Especially from those who have hands-on experience with them.

Thanks,

Anthony

P.S. -- I know pricing is kinda tricky to compare since there are a variety of configurations. It seems as though the Atom
ranges from $60,000-100,000 depending on extras, magnesium vs. aluminum, etc. Haven't been able to find pricing on
the TS-5 yet, though I messaged Lucas. Thanks again :)
 
Anthony, you are right, main contenders are ET Atom and 3Ality TS-5, however there are couple more that are just about to enter the market,
at a much higher yet insane specs, so be ready to be surprise again of what you know... ;)

We were going with 3Ality at first, but then decided to go with ET Atom, and finally taking delivery of our first of 3 units this week!!

Our choice was based on several factors, form factor, Epic integration, less cables, and of course integration design with GATES Deep Atom for under water 3D filming.

But we continue to keep interest for the 3Ality as well, for its own bag of goodies, yet we are fully open to what is about to hit the market,
just know that we don't consider any of the cheaper options as they do not come close to the amount of control needed to make great images in 3D.

New rig coming to market could have up to 12 motors, and incredibly make more precision controls for 3D, can't say more for now, but more coming soon, very son... ;)
 
Ketch! So mysterious! LOL. I get it. And can't wait to see more, though I think ET or 3Ality will be more than high-end enough for my needs, since will be most commercial work.

Congrats on the rigs being delivered :) One thing I'm curious about ... it seems that 3Ality is big lighter/smaller and thus maybe better for handheld... is that true?

Anthony
 
AnthonyFlores said:
Ketch! So mysterious! LOL. I get it. And can't wait to see more, though I think ET or 3Ality will be more than high-end enough for my needs, since will be most commercial work.

Congrats on the rigs being delivered :) One thing I'm curious about ... it seems that 3Ality is big lighter/smaller and thus maybe better for handheld... is that true?

Anthony
Click to expand...

There is no question that there are major advantages to the high end rigs for feature/narrative high pressure shooting. On the other hand,the vast majority of motion picture production is in documentary; corporate and industrial demo and training; nature/wildlife; research; etc.

All of which have use for 3D but don't require the capabilities of the higher end rigs and in fact often benefit from simpler and lighter weight rigs. Even a significant percentage of music video, sports, and commercial shoots do not require the sophisticated controls of those rigs. You need a solid and flexible platform but that doesn't need to be super expensive.

Sometimes you need an industrial robot, other times you just need a screwdriver and someone that knows how to use it. "Horses for courses" "right tool for the job", etc. :)
 
Michael Hastings said:
There is no question that there are major advantages to the high end rigs for feature/narrative high pressure shooting. On the other hand,the vast majority of motion picture production is in documentary; corporate and industrial demo and training; nature/wildlife; research; etc.

All of which have use for 3D but don't require the capabilities of the higher end rigs and in fact often benefit from simpler and lighter weight rigs. Even a significant percentage of music video, sports, and commercial shoots do not require the sophisticated controls of those rigs. You need a solid and flexible platform but that doesn't need to be super expensive.

Sometimes you need an industrial robot, other times you just need a screwdriver and someone that knows how to use it. "Horses for courses" "right tool for the job", etc. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks Michael, your comments help -- and most expensive/high-end isn't always necessary ... depends on needs. That's why I'm researching these rigs and others like the one you announced -- to cover a variety of needs. I think it also partly depends on rental demand for the high-end rigs and whether the investment can be partly recouped that way.
 
I also heard ( I can't talk about) a new rig from a a very respected source that should be amazing.....and in a few days I will check out another prototype from another manufacturer....

Unfortunately, I don't have much experience with the TS-5 and I would love a demo sometime......

Besides some of the stuff that some people already mentioned another big advantage of the Atom rig is that it is 100% compliant with all the Sony broadcast tools. You can control the rig from the broadcast truck etc with the Sony MPE tools.......as an potential owner this also broadens the scope of potential rental clients/situations.
 
Pedro Guimaraes said:
I also heard ( I can't talk about) a new rig from a a very respected source that should be amazing.....and in a few days I will check out another prototype from another manufacturer....

Unfortunately, I don't have much experience with the TS-5 and I would love a demo sometime......

Besides some of the stuff that some people already mentioned another big advantage of the Atom rig is that it is 100% compliant with all the Sony broadcast tools. You can control the rig from the broadcast truck etc with the Sony MPE tools.......as an potential owner this also broadens the scope of potential rental clients/situations.
Click to expand...

Thanks Pedro, I know you have a lot of hands on experience ... also looking forward to seeing the rigs you and Ketch mysteriously allude to!

In terms of the 3Ality, I'm sure Lucas would help you get a demo. Still unable to find pricing ... guess I'm going to have to do what they did in the old days and actually pick up the phone!! :(

Appreciate the other comments as well, thanks Michael and Clyde.
 
3D is awesome, and the more i find out about how it works, the more intriguing it becomes. We are planning to shoot a film in HI and I am also really interested in the differences between ET's Atom rig, and 3ality's TS-5 system. I know that the 3ality rig adjusts both cameras equally with IO control-awesome for steadicam. I'm not sure if the Atom does, although I don't see why it wouldn't. They also have some pretty intricate computerized auto alignment systems.
 
I agree Abraham ... also I think the market for smaller budget (i.e. non features) like music videos, commercials, etc in 3D is going to grow massively in the next couple of years. And so I want to be able to effectively serve those needs. As Michael wisely noted, you don't always need the "best" rigs like ET, 3Ality or the new ones -- but I'd like the fleixibility that the higher-end ones provide to be able to do independent features at the highest level.
 
Hey Anthony,

Just saw this thread - I don't check my Reduser PMs very often - sorry! If you don't mind, please email me at lucas.wilson (at) 3alitydigital (dot) com and I will respond. : )

Lucas
 
Lucas Wilson said:
Hey Anthony,

Just saw this thread - I don't check my Reduser PMs very often - sorry! If you don't mind, please email me at lucas.wilson (at) 3alitydigital (dot) com and I will respond. : )

Lucas
Click to expand...

Thanks Lucas, sent you an email.
 
Just in case my signature and the logos aren't enough... (Disclaimer - I work for 3ality Digital)

The S3D world is still a pretty small place, and something you guys should know is that everyone at 3ality Digital likes and respects the ET guys. They do good work, they're good people, and their passion and dedication to S3D has done nothing but elevate the discussion and make the S3D world a better place! We spent a lot of time with them in our space at NAB - I see Michael a lot dropping off my kids at school - it's a small world and while (of course) we compete on jobs, I think there is plenty of work to go around, and both companies will be justifiably successful.

So here is what 3ality Digital gear does that is fairly unique, and why we believe in our technology:

Think about a standard, 2D digital camera. In one housing is a sensor, and a computer tied to that sensor. That computer is responsible for taking what the sensor outputs, processing it significantly, and outputting it into a usable form out the back end.

S3D should be no different. There is the "rig" - roughly analagous to the sensor in a 2D world. It is the mechanism responsible for acquiring the images. But people think a great rig is enough to get great images. Get a rig that is well made, set it up and align it properly, and go forth! Unfortunately, that ignores a lot of the realities of S3D. When that rig is aligned on a scene, it is only aligned for that scene. As soon as you shoot a different scene, the rig may still be aligned, but the geometry of the scene has completely changed, and unless the cameras and lenses on the rig have adjusted accordingly to accommodate for the new geometry, you have less-than-the-best S3D you can acquire.

Remember, there is no such thing as "real-world depth." Depth is an illusion that your brain creates by analyzing and interpreting about 29 different depth cues which then forms a complex internal realtime, non-Euclidean geometry map, and THAT is what you "see." The cues include things like: Horizontal Parallax, Vergence, Color Parallax, Texture Gradients, Cast Shadows, Surface Shadows, Atmospheric Perspective, Linear Perspective... and many more.

What our systems do is combine a great rig (TS2, TS4, TS5) with a unique back-end processing system (Stereo Image Processor - SIP) to provide a realtime feedback mechanism that analyzes those depth cues and can adjust accordingly. How does this work in the real world?

Take our TS5-based system...

The TS5 has 12 high-precision motors on the rig itself. There are 3 motors per lens (Focus, Iris, Zoom) and then motors attached to each camera sled that allow for 5-degrees of freedom for each camera. All of that motor activity is summed into a small physical unit that lives on the rig called an SPC (Stereo Platform Controller.) The SPC then communicates off the rig to the SIP. The SIP has two halves. The first half is taking a LE and RE image and analyzing it in realtime. It is actually looking at those 29 different depth cues, and generating data from those cues. A complete set of data for those depth cues is analyzed every 6 milliseconds and then presented to the operator in a wide variety of user-selectable ways. That part of the SIP is rig-agnostic. It is just looking at the image. That's also why the SIP has been used as an assist tool for many jobs that utilize ET, Pace, and other rigs. It gives the camera crew a lot of additional information to help align rigs.

The 2nd "half" of the SIP is what makes the 3ality Digital system truly unique. There is a feedback mechanism from the SIP to the SPC to the motors. In a 24/25/30/48/50 or 60-fps world - the SIP gets an image, and analyzes it. By the time the shutters open to acquire the next frame, the previous frame has been analyzed, and any of the depth cues that fall outside of a range of tolerance have been flagged and the SIP/SPC combination has sent commands to the respective motors that turn the math into the physical reality of motors and lenses in order to capture a correct geometry on the next frame. While the motors are capable of making micro-adjustments every frame, that rarely happens. There is an overall awareness of time in the SPC and being able to extrapolate a curve of movement over a series of frames.

And all of the communication between the SIP and the rig itself can be carried on one cable, or in the case of the handheld rigs in Spiderman, The Hobbit, and Jack the Giant Killer - can be flown wireless.

Now add to this what we introduced at NAB - the 3space IntelleFamily of products. IntelleCal is a product that takes the rig/lens alignment process that used to take a really long time... and now, once the physical build of the rig is done with cameras/lenses correctly mounted - the complete alignment process takes about 5 minutes with zoom lenses, and 3 minutes with Primes. IntelleCam does automatic convergence and interaxial pulling - allowing a small single or two-person crew to capture great S3D images without needing a separate convergence/IA puller.

Fast, accurate, small, light and capturing accurate images and geometry on every frame.

That is why we believe that our products are fairly unique and allow S3D to be captured at the highest possible level today.

Best,

Lucas
 
Ketch,

No - the IntelleCal system must be able to take the feedback generated by the SIP and turn that into motor commands that can then return to the SPC/SIP in a feedback loop. The only rigs - right now - whose motor assemblies can talk to the SPC/SIP are the 3ality Digital TS-series.

You can still use a SIP to assist in aligning your ATOM rigs, but it is up to you to make manual adjustments on your rig based on what the SIP is telling you about the geometry it sees.
 
Thanks Lucas, got your email. I appreciate that you didn't turn this into a "we're better than them" match between ET and 3Ality, I know both are great systems and there's a reason why both have been well adopted by initial Epic users. Your explanation helps a lot ...
 
Lucas, with this new 3space tech how important is it to have matched sets of lenses. For instance if I rented a second, un-matched set of Optimo Rouges to go with the set I already own would the system compensate for any differences in physical alignment or tracking?
 
We will have some VERY exciting things to share very soon with respect to further developments with the ATOM rig and Mistika Live. Trust me when I say VERY exciting.
 
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