What is a good multiple track recorder for indi films?

[Frank_L]

Can someone list some? Thank you.

 

[Peter Matthes]

The Sound Devices 744T deck

... or the Sound Devices 788T (pictured below) if you need more tracks.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Can someone list some? Thank you.

How many tracks do you need and what is the budget?

I like the units Peter mentioned, but you may find them pricey. The 744T is about $4000.

Tascam makes an 8 track recorder (that's six sources, plus a two channel mix) for about $800. It has no timecode in or out though. That may work in your workflow though- especially if you are using a camera like the 7D with no TC in/out.

Tascam makes a two channel recorder (two ins to two tracks) with timecode in and out, also about $800.

An economical solution for multitrack with TC?

Get both of the Tascam units.

Do your multitrack recording on the 8 track. Send its stereo outs to the 2 track with timecode.

You can use Plural Eyes to auto sync the multitrack recordings to the two track in post, and then use TC to sync the two track to picture- ta-da!

Its extra post audio work, but it'll save you about $2400 purchase price.

Don't get me wrong, this is FAR from a panacea! If you can afford it get the 744T or the 788T. You won't regret it.

 

[Bruce Allen]

H
Tascam makes an 8 track recorder (that's six sources, plus a two channel mix) for about $800. It has no timecode in or out though. That may work in your workflow though- especially if you are using a camera like the 7D with no TC in/out.

Alexander - 7D can do timecode: just send the timecode into the 7D as an analog audio track.

Avid converts that audio track back to timecode with a few buttons.

Likely there's a way to do it in FCP too?

That said, yeah I have a Sound Devices 702T and love it. It's like the RED of the sound recording world in terms of value for money - though Tascam's new stuff wasn't out when I bought it and looks pretty awesome too

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Peter Matthes]

If you want to skip a timecode deck, and do post synch, there is software that apprently does a good job of it.

For FCP it is called PluralEyes.
For AVID it is DualEyes.

Both are made by Singular Software. You can read about them and watch tutorials on their website. (See link below)

http://www.singularsoftware.com/products.html

I don't have any personal experience with the software since I own a 744T, but I know a couple people who swear by it.

 

[shashbugu]

The best multi track recorder out there is also one of the cheapest and least known. All it requires are an older version mac-book pro, a mutli-track bus powered portable interface and a 7200rpm drive.

We have used this for the past 5 yrs on projects of all sizes. You will be amazed at it power and reliability. As long as the Mac book pro is only dedicated to this software alone

http://www.vosgames.nl/products/BoomRecorder/

I do also always rent a 744t plus mixer for all portable lavs (and in the event the macbook decides to die that day, knock on wood its never happend). But the main two boom tracks are always recorded to Boom Recorder.

 

[Stephen Pruitt]

We have a 788T and love it! Terrific audio. But, as noted, it is not inexpensive by any means.

Stephen

 

[Jon Lillie]

The best multi track recorder out there is also one of the cheapest and least known. All it requires are an older version mac-book pro, a mutli-track bus powered portable interface and a 7200rpm drive.

We have used this for the past 5 yrs on projects of all sizes. You will be amazed at it power and reliability. As long as the Mac book pro is only dedicated to this software alone

http://www.vosgames.nl/products/BoomRecorder/

I do also always rent a 744t plus mixer for all portable lavs (and in the event the macbook decides to die that day, knock on wood its never happend). But the main two boom tracks are always recorded to Boom Recorder.

+1 for BoomRecorder

Used it for a couple of shorts (total of 7 days) and it worked flawlessly. Used my old MacBook Pro and a Motu Traveler v1. Mixer was an old mackie that sounds just fine for talking, though I would never do a band with it. Was able to record individual tracks and a mix, to multiple drives and files at the same time. Was awesome.

Best part, there is a free 30 day trial that is un-gimped. Acts just like the full version, just refuses to work 30 days after install.

 

[Marc Wielage]

The Zaxcom Deva 5.8, the Fusion, the Sound Devices 788t (and older 744t), the Aaton Cantar, the Nagra VI... all of these are standard multitrack decks used for location sound dialog. The problem with Boom Recorder (and the much-more-capable Gallery Metacorder) is that you're limited to using it in places where a laptop will work. It's great in a studio, or in a fixed location; it's bad if you have to constantly move it, keep on the run, or are in a constantly-changing situation. I've used both laptop-based systems and dedicated recorders, and to me, the latter are far more flexible for dramatic film production.

Bear in mind that a lot depends on the mixer you're using, whether you're trying to mix in the recorder or use an outboard mixer, the number of microphones, and what you're trying to accomplish. Sometimes, two tracks is enough; sometimes, you need 10 or more tracks.

So much depends on budget, intentions, time, number of actors, complexity of locations, microphone techniques, editing requirements, post facilities, etc. ... There are no standard answers that will work equally well under all circumstances.

The best bet is to hire an experienced sound mixer who can guide you towards something that will work for your project. Sound quality isn't dictated by the recorder -- it's dictated by the person running it. And after that, I'd say it's the microphones, where they're placed, and the nature of the location (not necessarily in that order).

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

The best bet is to hire an experienced sound mixer who can guide you towards something that will work for your project. Sound quality isn't dictated by the recorder -- it's dictated by the person running it.

That is probably the single most important tidbit on this thread.

Put differently if you have to ask here, you need to hire someone!

 

[shashbugu]

The Zaxcom Deva 5.8, the Fusion, the Sound Devices 788t (and older 744t), the Aaton Cantar, the Nagra VI... all of these are standard multitrack decks used for location sound dialog. The problem with Boom Recorder (and the much-more-capable Gallery Metacorder) is that you're limited to using it in places where a laptop will work. It's great in a studio, or in a fixed location; it's bad if you have to constantly move it, keep on the run, or are in a constantly-changing situation. I've used both laptop-based systems and dedicated recorders, and to me, the latter are far more flexible for dramatic film production.

Bear in mind that a lot depends on the mixer you're using, whether you're trying to mix in the recorder or use an outboard mixer, the number of microphones, and what you're trying to accomplish. Sometimes, two tracks is enough; sometimes, you need 10 or more tracks.

So much depends on budget, intentions, time, number of actors, complexity of locations, microphone techniques, editing requirements, post facilities, etc. ... There are no standard answers that will work equally well under all circumstances.

The best bet is to hire an experienced sound mixer who can guide you towards something that will work for your project. Sound quality isn't dictated by the recorder -- it's dictated by the person running it. And after that, I'd say it's the microphones, where they're placed, and the nature of the location (not necessarily in that order).

ha ha ha ha ha!!, thats the first thing every sound mixer I ever hired says, they usually all have their own equipment or request we hire what they need from Coffey sound. I am always very open to whatever works and makes one comfortable, but as soon as I pull out my rugged all in one pelican laptop rig, complete with mixer,d shoulder mount braces, extra power, and even cooling fan, they are like WOW!!!!!!!!. I cant begin to tell you the types of situations, tests, and environments this rig has been through.

I agree, I do hire people for their recording mixing skills not for the recording equipment they use. If possible I always request an external feed into Boom Recorder as backup. (which for most people a hardware rig would be the backup) I am planning on starting a business selling this configuration.

I did try a demo of Gallery Metacorder recently, its a great APP that has a few more features than Boom, However it does require a lot of keyboard and mouse funtionality which defeats the purpose in a run and gun situation. An Apple remote control has 50% of all the transport control you will need with Boom. It does some really cool automated slating and tagging, which if you visually slate accordingly is so easy in your media audio search and sync management process later on in Post.

 

[rupertmac]

Hi,
We have been using a R4 Pro for about 2 years on everything from features to live music shows. Never let us down and goes for about half the price of a Tascam or Sound devices, but then it only has four track, not that we have found this to be a problem (A boom and 3 radios)
Regards
Rupert MacCarthy-Morrogh

 

[Marc Wielage]

I did try a demo of Gallery Metacorder recently, its a great APP that has a few more features than Boom, However it does require a lot of keyboard and mouse funtionality which defeats the purpose in a run and gun situation.

For run 'n' gun, you really need a dedicated recorder like Sound Devices or Deva. A laptop just isn't appropriate, in my opinion, because you can't walk it around or sling it over your shoulder, certainly not with a multitrack A/D attached. Having it all in one case isn't going to solve the problem of vibration, rain, dust, or the myriad of other hazards that happen on location.

I love the Pelican cases and they're great for what they do -- I own 22 of them for my sound gear (including batteries), and they're really reliable.

 

[Marshall_H]

I'm just learning so please bear with me.. I keep hearing use the sound devices 4 and 8 channel recorders with a companion mixer then also hear that all tracks are recorded separately. Why the mixer on the set if the tracks are recorded individually for mix in post and what happens if you go over 4 or 8 tracks in order to keep all the tracks separate... I'm missing something.

 

[oleg kaizerman]

you are missing the money , no one have to deal with iso tracks if he doesn't need it , it cost time , time is money .
, complete mix provided by your sound mixer is eventually the major part of your sound track . iso track are back up for fuck ups and only for ignorants- are the main .

 

[oleg kaizerman]

Hi,
We have been using a R4 Pro for about 2 years on everything from features to live music shows. Never let us down and goes for about half the price of a Tascam or Sound devices, but then it only has four track, not that we have found this to be a problem (A boom and 3 radios)
Regards
Rupert MacCarthy-Morrogh

i have it 2 with good preamp in front noone will ever tell you what did you recorded with.
i have Deva 16 , 788, 744 and JoeCO black box24 tracks as well - every recorder has it its own benefits , the h-4 has best for the money futures , but not the best audio specifications for direct work , so knowing the limitations is must, a s the unit will not forgive you .

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I'm just learning so please bear with me.. I keep hearing use the sound devices 4 and 8 channel recorders with a companion mixer then also hear that all tracks are recorded separately. Why the mixer on the set if the tracks are recorded individually for mix in post and what happens if you go over 4 or 8 tracks in order to keep all the tracks separate... I'm missing something.

Well, what you want is to create a mix for the temp track.

See, if I have an 8 channel recorder, it actually typically records ten tracks. Each of the eight channels individually, and the mix as a stereo pair. That mix is what gets sent out to the camera as a temp track and also what the director hears on set.

All through editorial, the temp track is all you hear, until picture lock.

The temp track is NOT a creative mix typically, but a technical one. Basically you want to get the cleanest (i.e. lowest noise highest volume & distortion free) signal recorded, and I usually use the stereo channels to give a vague sense of position for the subjects.

Later, the post sound editor will massage these tracks carefully and creatively. They'll determine what tracks need to be re-recorded. They really need the discrete takes from each mic for that.

Now what happens if you go over 4 or 8 mics ? Well then you get more recorders and mixers!

Before I ramble on- using more than 8 mics on an independent feature is relatively rare.

On the feature I recorded we used a single wired mic on 95% of shots. That is extreme, but I generally prefer to use as few mics as practical. Wireless does drive my mic count way up though because I don't trust the wireless hops and I don't like the way the small lav mics sound, so I usually put up wired mics even if they are in a bad position.

You may notice that a lot of professional cameras, including Red One, have 4 audio inputs. You can use temp tracks from two recorders this way.

Also, you can get recorders that record up to 12 discrete inputs channels plus a four channel mix. (Zaxcom Deva 16)

You can gang those up quite a lot if desired. You can take the mix output from each recorder into a huge multichannel mixer/recorder and further downmix them.

The biggest live recording (a stage production) I've ever done involved 18 mics. Before I start explaining, I did this large a set up mostly for learning. Normally I would set 4 stage mics and 4 wireless and just do a live mix and live with it.

I used three Sound Devices 788T units as my principal mixer recorder for each bank of 6 mics. I sent the stereo outputs of each of those to a Mackie 1402VLZ mixer (which sits on my desk normally) I mixed those mostly looking to equalize small differences in recording levels, and split the output to a wireless IFB transmitter and a Tascam two channel recorder. The cameras took the IFB signal to their channels three and four (using their onboard stereo mics for channels 1&2).

All of the recorders and cameras were fed timecode from a single source.

So, I ended up with 18 mic tracks, grouped in banks of six. Each of those mic banks had their own stereo pair recorded. Then I had two channels recorded on the Tascam, which was a mix down from the Sound devices outputs. That's 24 channels the sound department recorded. In addition camera department recorded 6 unique channels of audio, and each camera had my IFB broadcast recorded as well in case timecode sync proved to be inaccurate we had a reference scratch track. Some of those ended up being useful.

As is expected, editorial was done entirely from the Tascam audio after synch was complete.

Audio editing was done with the 18 iso tracks, but the 6 stereo pairs from the mic banks was used as a reference for mic position. It turns out the 2 channel live mix was very good, I only made a few changes mostly to mic position. For most of that I only had to dig into the stereo pairs form the 788s. I only had to use the ISO tracks on 3-4 scenes

That was incredibly complicated, and I did it mostly to push myself and learn. Quite frankly the production would have been ecstatic with just the live down mix from four stage mics and four wireless.

I do disagree that the ISO tracks are principally for back up and "ignorants." It does depend on your target release. You can make a truly excellent live mix and still miss the mark of feature quality. Then again, we hear lots of live mixes all the time and never bat a lash. TV often uses the on set mix, almost all news is just the live audio recording, etc. Still, what you can deliver for TV or indie film is just not acceptable for a feature- so the practice of recording ISO tracks is VERY important.

 

[Robert Frank]

Just another setup to help provide information that may or may not be useful to you.

I use audio interfaces from Metric-Halo.

I use the ULN-2 for basic 2 channel Audio I/O , the ULN-8 for 8 channels, and units can be daisy chained to increase simultaneous I/O's as needed. This rig does require a computer (Mac only), comes with recording software called Record Panel. I use any number of different software apps from Digital Performer, Logic Pro, Pro Tools, Boom Recorder, Peak, depending on the project. My rig runs on a 2008 MacBook Pro.

Although these interfaces are called Mobile I/O, because they are tethered to a computer, they are not suitable for spontaneous run-n-gun scenarios. They do excel in a more planned situation where each setup is more deliberate. A MIO rig can be made relatively compact but not as portable as an all-in-one box.

I'm far from the "industry" way of doing things, but have the freedom to not do things just because "that's the way it's done".

 

[Robert Frank]

I do disagree that the ISO tracks are principally for back up and "ignorants."

ISO tracks can save an indy filmmaker. You might need to re-record just one actor for whatever reason, (bad mic, etc) and ISO tracks have the ability to isolate and replace that one part very quickly later. I make sure there is plenty of "room tone" (recording of ambient acoustic environment AND the mics used for the recording) to use later to rebuild the track.

At times I will also shoot an acoustic Impulse/Response of the space to have as a reference for use in Altiverb (convolution reverb) to recreate the acoustic space if needed.

 

[Michael Panfeld]

Alexander gave you a great view of the two extremes: 1 single boom mic and 18+ tracks. Normally, dramatic features will have 1 or 2 people talking at once in a scene. For a two-person shot, that would probably be a single boom and a wireless lav on each actor. That's 3 channels. The Sound Devices 302 will take those three sources and mix that down to two tracks. A zoom H4n (at the bottom end) or a Sound Devices 702 (top end for 2 tracks) can then record that mix. Normally, the wireless lavs would be mixed together on the same track, with the boom recorded on the 2nd track. That's what I would call the bare minimum indie feature setup.

This is not without issues. For example, as some have noted, if a wireless acts up during a take then the mix is potentially ruined - at least with respect to the channel with the two wireless lavs. Good thing is that you have a 2nd track with the boom mic that should be "clean." However, sometimes you can't get the boom in close enough, or perhaps an inexperienced boom op adds some handling noise, and then you get burned.

That's why you have 4, 8, and 12 track recorders, in addition to the 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12, 16, 24+ track mixers. Beyond the basic setup I described above, these extra mixer channels and recording tracks provide backup when the normal mix goes awry (and what indie hasn't been visited by Mr Murphy).

PS, Alexander: I am in DC as well. How about a cup of coffee some day.