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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Hobbit shot on Epic at 48fps

This discussion is about smooth versus flicker aka live video versus film motion portrayal.

There is hardly any research into audience response of flicker
versus smooth displays. I recall one US university study where
flicker versus smooth was compared and the majority of participants
regarded the smooth as being more immediate and emotionally evolving.

I do trust Doug Trumball's research.

I reckon that a modern audience will flock to "real" (+48fps)
looking movies especially sci-fi and fantasy because it is this genre, in every
shot, where the audience is challenged to believe in a fantastic world.


Film aficionados have claimed that flicker aides the suspension of
belief, but such claims were and have never been supported by any science.
The phrase "Suspension of disbelief" is a phrase more likely to have come from Kodak wordsmiths than Kodak scientists.

I recall in the early days of the f900 when 30fps was not adopted as a
frame rate for US sitcoms as it was deemed too radical a step for the
audience to accept. It was said to look too smooth, but I am not
aware of any scientific evaluation done at the time and given the cost savings of using video rather than film for 30p one can imagine that those with a vested interest in film did all they could to scupper the idea.


Our industry is not well served by science when it comes to evaluating an audience's psyscho physical response to our craft and also has trouble keeping up with the pace of our industry's technical developments.

Here is some research done in 1988 at the MIT media lab by Kimberly Foley....
http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~kimf/thesis/chap4.htm
"When asked to articulate the difference between the "film look" and the "video look", most subjects found it hard to describe. On the whole, viewers do see a difference but mass audience and experts alike have a difficult time pinpointing what that difference is."


Mike Brennan
 
Though I'm not generally a fan of 3D (Avatar being the exception), I'm very excited about 48fps. I agree with Jim, let's wait and see before judging. Keep in mind that at 24 fps 3D you are basically delivering 12 fps to each eye, and to me that looks awful. Jumping to 48 will basically deliver 24 to each eye, and I think that's going to look fantastic.

As for converting to 24fps for DVD/Blu-Ray/Broadcast, that will be easy, there's more than enough temporal and spacial data to create a natural 24 fps 180º shutter look.
 
As for converting to 24fps for DVD/Blu-Ray/Broadcast, that will be easy, there's more than enough temporal and spacial data to create a natural 24 fps 180º shutter look.

Would that be about just removing "one frame yes...one frame no ...one frame yes ...one frame no ...? easy like that ?

and audio should stay in sync right ?

thanks

g
 
and audio should stay in sync right ?

I think to keep audio in sync you would have to remove every other frame, but duplicate the ones you're keeping to fill in the temporal space if you're still playing back at 48 fps.

I could be wrong... never done anything like this before. Just speaking theoretically...
 
Keep in mind that at 24 fps 3D you are basically delivering 12 fps to each eye, and to me that looks awful. Jumping to 48 will basically deliver 24 to each eye, and I think that's going to look fantastic.


This is not accurate. 24fps stereo shows 24fps to each eye, not 12fps.
 
This is not accurate. 24fps stereo shows 24fps to each eye, not 12fps.

In the RealD projection system, 72 images per second per eye are actually delivered. Each eye's image is triple flashed, yielding 144fps, 72 for each eye.
 
In the RealD projection system, 72 images per second per eye are actually delivered. Each eye's image is triple flashed, yielding 144fps, 72 for each eye.

So does this mean enabling a 72 fps timebase would be optimal? Would shooting 48 fps require you to do something similar to the 3:2 pulldown done for TV?
 
24fps HDRx is essentially 48fps isn't it? Are we certain that isn't what they mean by 48 frames per second? One highlight protection frame for every regular frame...

-michael zaletel
 
So does this mean enabling a 72 fps timebase would be optimal? Would shooting 48 fps require you to do something similar to the 3:2 pulldown done for TV?

My guess is that if a RealD type system is used that it might revert to double flash for a higher frame rate, but the reason for the triple flash is to minimize viewer discomfort by minimizing the temporal differences between left and right eye delivery. I don't know the physics of how that might work at a lower presentation rate but with twice the number of original frames. That's a question for Lucas, perhaps. Or Lenny Lipton, if he's reading this...
 
Well there was a time when movies were shot at 16 or 18 fps that gave them the flickery effect,that is the reason from which the word "flicks" originated, 23.976 frames per second is basically and actually the most minimum amount of frame rate at which a smooth motion can be achieved, so people moved to 23.976 frames per second and has been sticking to it since then for almost the last 86 years. Well "film" was and still is "costly",more frame rates means spending more money on raw stocks,same as the reason for not making 70mm the standard for motion pictures.But with digital the story is different..,i am happy that soon we all will be able to shoot on larger sensors without any worries,but i cant say the same for higher frame rates because we all are,or at least i am verry used and attached to the 23.98 fps and 180 degree shutter look and the motion characteristics that they define..,but thats just me.
So lets just wait and watch as the technological future of the visual medium of story telling unfolds itself........................................
 
I am looking forward to 3D and 48fps. If anyone is going to use this format and make it look good, it's going to be Peter and his team. I, like many here, have grown accustom to enjoying movies at 24fps and rejecting anything higher as an awful video like motion. But I'm willing to bet that once we see the finished film, we may start to reconsider. I'm on the belief that 24fps as the only way for films to look "cinematic" is a result of a life time of conditioning. I'm all open to accepting new formats for the "cinematic look," but only if shot in the right hands. And Peter's team definitely qualifies.
 
In the debate over frame rates, most everyone posting has a preference of what they like. I take the view that it is my duty to try and figure out what my audience will like. And just in case the verdict comes back on the side of faster frame rates, I will have shot my movie at 48 fps. I am confident that it will be possible to remove every other frame and show it as a 24 fps timebase if the movie-going public prefers that. Who knows, I may release both versions and charge more for the 48 fps one, ala the 3D releases.:thumbup:
 
I certainly trust both Peter Jackson and James Cameron to make groundbreaking technological decisions. I think we should trust them on this and wait for the results. 48 @ 48 isn't so bad to me. The problem I have is with the television screens that upconvert realtime... looks terrible. But this is different. I really like what Graeme and others have said on the subject of creative use of framerates for storytelling and visceral, experiential purposes.
 
This makes me want to setup a test, to have people look at two short clips at 24P and 30P and ask them which one feels more like real life and which one feels like a movie. All while taking out all the stops and lighting them as cinematically as possible with all the post work to go with it.

I am fairly certain, that 24p with regards to the information your brain is getting over an amount of time is triggering the brain to fill the gaps and holes which allows things that are otherwise not believable to become believable. I have seen some higher frame rate CGI and in almost all cases the CGI becomes less believable at the higher frame rates.

I really want to do the above test. That being said in cinema I personally believe it is always going to be a choice.

Following is my thoughts:
In the same way for some productions less resolution for the finished product may be better than more, too much information could give away the illusion. There is a big difference lets say between, Aliens and Avatar. It's always a good idea I think to leave a little up to the imagination. More frames might take away from that, however I'm not one that has any issues with 3D to this day if it is done well.

I may be wrong.
 
People often generate preconceived notions on a variety of things.

1st and foremost... "thats' the way it has always been done and this is different so I probably won't like it".

Second is "a friend in the industry (substitute any number of titles here) told me it wasn't any good". His opinion most likely came from #1 or #3.

Third is "well, I know I don't like that other thing, and this might be like it... so I probably know for sure that I won't like this".

Truth is... not many of us have actually seen 3D 48fps with a 48fps playback. So we have to defer to one of the above three, or "wait and see..."

Jim
 
Edison supposedly wanted film to play at 48fps (claiming it was the slowest speed that looked real, after much testing) but had to settle for 24fps for mass production/mechanical/cost reasons. I don't know if it was his invention, but modern 35mm film projectors flash each frame twice to cut down on the flicker/jutter effects. So when you watch a non-digital movie in the theatre, you are actually seeing 48fps, but only 24-unique-fps... and that's not counting the short amount of time you are seeing almost complete darkness in between frames.

I remember 48fps 35mm ShowScan, but I've never seen it in person. Everyone I've talked to who saw it had nothing but great things to say about it (including the perception of improved resolution, which is a fascinating concept on it's own, but wouldn't apply to digital projection).

I'm sure everyone here has seen 720-60p, and while I would say that it has an inherent "cinematic" look at all, I can say that I used it in an attempt to achieve a cinematic effect in a documentary I produced last year for NASA (unfortunately it's not available on-line in 60p), and for those scenes on the client monitor, I felt the story hook, not a jarring, 'oh, this is like a soap opera' feeling.

Real-D does flash each frame several times to lessen the flicker/jutter effects, but I've never heard anyone complain of anything lost there. The "TrueScan" and "SuperScam" type of frame interpolation that the new consumer LCD's come with, however look truly horrible to me when I see 24fps originated movie trailers in BestBuy, but what can you expect when you're seeing morphing happening in between each frame (ever seen bad slo-mo created with inter-frame interpolation? It was pretty popular in the early 00's).

I saw James Cameron in an interview, say that the one thing he lamented not being able to do on Avatar was 48fps, so I knew this day was soon approaching. I personally can't wait to see what it's going to look like. I for one am hopeful.
 
. I don't know if it was his invention, but modern 35mm film projectors flash each frame twice to cut down on the flicker/jutter effects. So when you watch a non-digital movie in the theatre, you are actually seeing 48fps, but only 24-unique-fps... and that's not counting the short amount of time you are seeing almost complete darkness in between frames.

I dont think that would make much differene in the motion characteristics that 23.976 fps and 180 degree shutter defines, just like when we watch a 23.976 movie on our 60i televisions. Its what we shoot at matters not how we convert and project it,there may be some artifacts but the basic motion character remains the same, ohterwise movies would have looked like soap operas when viewed on our television sets..............
 
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