Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

How do movie pros do audio?

F

Frank_L

Banned
Joined
Sep 5, 2010
Messages
56
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Do they use a mono shotgun mic on a boom and in post make it so it appears 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound or something? Or do they use a stereo condenser mic or multiple mics at the same time? Also, please recommend some good mics you have either used or think are good. Thank you in advance.
 
Last edited:
Frank, nearly all pros use multiple mics. Schoeps has a good line of mics.
 
  • Thread starter
  • Banned
  • #3
How many mics do you think is minimum for a shooting a scene?
 
I'm not a mixer or a boom op, but to my knowledge, dialog is recorded in mono, and in a 5.1 mix comes primarily from the center channel. Any panning and positioning is done after the fact.

On the project's I've worked with, the sound folks ran lapels on each main character and a boom as well, each to a separate track.

The goal is clean, isolated, present sound. Placement can be determined in post.
 
I will echo what zach says here. 99% of the time one or two booms, and as many lavs as possible are used, each one being mono. The goal of the production sound team, (and the productions that can afford a Red have no reason not to have them!!) as was said, is clear, clean voices. this can be up to 10-12 tracks, if the scene needs it. Generally, it's more like 4-6. Dialog editors then go in, edit, clean, choosing the best mics, taking out problems, work with ADR. They also ensure that there is smooth consistent sounding room tone on their tracks, and seperate out any on sound fx recorded during filming to make mixing easier. Again this is all mono.
The fx and foley teams add in backgrounds, hard fx, sound design, and foley. Foley is recorded mono to match production. Fx and BG's, and sound design are normally mono or stereo, though it is in some cases recorded in surround.
This is no small feat. Every syllable is checked. Everything that could make a sound is given one, every footstep recorded. Music is also edited.
After all of this is done, all of these hundreds and hundreds of edited tracks are brought to the mix room and brought together. Panned, treated, noise removed, reverbed, and leveled. This is the point that the sonic stage is built. 95% of the time. Dialog is panned exclusively to the center channel. Though some reverb might be put in the left or right, or the surrounds, it stays in the middle. This is done to keep things consistent between camera angles. You could imagine if characters' panning moved everytime a cut happened, it would be very distracting, confusing, and at some point pull the viewer out of the story. Obviously, there are times dialog will move away from center, but it's a rare exception to the rule. Foley is kept in the middle to match the voices. If the voice is in the C but the footsteps are L, you get confused. Hard fx are panned to follow on screen action. Door slams, car bys, jet fly overs. Backgrounds and atmospheres are kept about 60-75% up front with some going to the surrounds. This of course depends on the scene. Is it intimate or huge? Quiet or active? How much does the director want the scene to fill the theater? Is there a subway or an ocean? Where? How big is the space? A verby hanger or a bedroom. All creative choices.
Music is similar to BG's, though it's for the most part kept out of the center. If stems are given, individual instruments might be panned. Normally, music reverb is added.

So the bottom line: Recorded mono on set. Made surround in post.

If you learn a lesson: sound shouldn't be a hasty afterthought. Budget for it. Take time for it. You don't skimp on the picture. Don't skimp on sound.
 
  • Thread starter
  • Banned
  • #9
S_Miille said:
I will echo what zach says here. 99% of the time one or two booms, and as many lavs as possible are used, each one being mono. The goal of the production sound team, (and the productions that can afford a Red have no reason not to have them!!) as was said, is clear, clean voices. this can be up to 10-12 tracks, if the scene needs it. Generally, it's more like 4-6. Dialog editors then go in, edit, clean, choosing the best mics, taking out problems, work with ADR. They also ensure that there is smooth consistent sounding room tone on their tracks, and seperate out any on sound fx recorded during filming to make mixing easier. Again this is all mono.
The fx and foley teams add in backgrounds, hard fx, sound design, and foley. Foley is recorded mono to match production. Fx and BG's, and sound design are normally mono or stereo, though it is in some cases recorded in surround.
This is no small feat. Every syllable is checked. Everything that could make a sound is given one, every footstep recorded. Music is also edited.
After all of this is done, all of these hundreds and hundreds of edited tracks are brought to the mix room and brought together. Panned, treated, noise removed, reverbed, and leveled. This is the point that the sonic stage is built. 95% of the time. Dialog is panned exclusively to the center channel. Though some reverb might be put in the left or right, or the surrounds, it stays in the middle. This is done to keep things consistent between camera angles. You could imagine if characters' panning moved everytime a cut happened, it would be very distracting, confusing, and at some point pull the viewer out of the story. Obviously, there are times dialog will move away from center, but it's a rare exception to the rule. Foley is kept in the middle to match the voices. If the voice is in the C but the footsteps are L, you get confused. Hard fx are panned to follow on screen action. Door slams, car bys, jet fly overs. Backgrounds and atmospheres are kept about 60-75% up front with some going to the surrounds. This of course depends on the scene. Is it intimate or huge? Quiet or active? How much does the director want the scene to fill the theater? Is there a subway or an ocean? Where? How big is the space? A verby hanger or a bedroom. All creative choices.
Music is similar to BG's, though it's for the most part kept out of the center. If stems are given, individual instruments might be panned. Normally, music reverb is added.

So the bottom line: Recorded mono on set. Made surround in post.

If you learn a lesson: sound shouldn't be a hasty afterthought. Budget for it. Take time for it. You don't skimp on the picture. Don't skimp on sound.
Click to expand...

Very informative and great advice. Thanks!
 
Frank_L said:
Do they use a mono shotgun mic on a boom and in post make it so it appears 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound or something? Or do they use a stereo condenser mic or multiple mics at the same time? Also, please recommend some good mics you have either used or think are good. Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...
The best advice: hire a good, experienced sound mixer who knows what they're doing. Don't try to do it yourself. Bad-sounding dialog is one of the biggest turnoffs in low-budget filmmaking.

To answer your questions: 5.1 and 7.1 are final delivery formats, not production formats. Films are generally recorded in mono on the set, but sometimes (and more often these days), individual actors are miked separately with wireless microphones. Boom mikes, operated by a skilled operator, generally get more realistic dialog because they include the acoustic properties of the room. Stereo microphones are rarely used for dialog, but are sometimes used in effects gathering during the post process.

The Schoeps CMC641 is one of the most popular boom microphones used for interiors; the lower-cost Sennheiser MKH50 and MKH40 are also very good. The Schoeps CMIT and Sennheiser MKH60 are both excellent shotguns for outdoor use. The skill of the boom operator and the nature of the location are the two biggest issues that affect on-location dialog quality.

There are no general rules that apply to every production, and sound is an enormous, difficult, complex subject. Richard Patton's new book Sound Man goes into it in quite a bit of detail. But bear in mind that learning how to do sound from a book is a little like reading how to ride a bicycle. Nothing beats actual experience. As a friend of mine likes to say, "it takes years of experience to get years of experience."
 
S_Miille said:
If you learn a lesson: sound shouldn't be a hasty afterthought. Budget for it. Take time for it. You don't skimp on the picture. Don't skimp on sound.
Click to expand...

It can cost a lot more down the road, and possibly sacrifice excellent performances if this good advice is not heeded. Reminds me of Stanley Kubrik's very first feature, where they went way over budget in post for the sound.
 
Frank_L said:
How many mics do you think is minimum for a shooting a scene?
Click to expand...

Well, it's all depends on the scene being shot. Like other have written before in this thread, what happens in the scene (and dialog) decides how many mics you need.

It's a bit like cooking. Your ingredients and amount of different things differ depending on what you want to make.

But if speaking in general terms, I'd say 2 booms and 3-4 wireless lavs does the trick most of the time in your "ordinary" scenes (if there is such a thing).
 
Frank_L said:
How many mics do you think is minimum for a shooting a scene?
Click to expand...

Go watch 'The General' and you'll have your answer...

Mike
 
Its funny, the OP's question is what is the min. # of mics. That depends......

Mics have pretty specific applications. A CMIT is a great shotgun mic for outdoors, but not so great for a small indoor room, and vice versa for the 641. Just as many different flavors for lavs as well. It also depends on what is being shot. A feature might rely on one or two booms and an occaisional lav for wide shots. However, a reality TV show might skip all booms and just have lavs for 12-16 actors. And of course, you need backups of everything, in case the primaries are visited by Mr Murphy and his law.

High quality lavs are in the $400-500/each range, plus $1-3K for each transmitter/receiver pair. Shotguns and boom mics are $1-2K each as well. A reality show could easily require $15 to $55K of mics/transmitters/receivers. Of course you are looking at another $5 to 20K in mixers/recorders.

On every set I have worked on as a sound mixer, the value of the sound gear that I bring is up to 10 times more than the value of the camera/lenses being used. And yet, producers/directors always shortchange the Sound Dept. by asking what is the min. I think a better perspective can be understood if you ask: what is your audience's tolerance for bad sound? and then build from there.

Marc said it best, hire someone who knows what they are doing. Mic placement is more important than the brand. Most mixers/recorders have their own gear, so it is a "wet" hire.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top