Noob question: What type of video card do I need to online edit 4K footage?

[jake blackstone]

Having said that, those colorists are indeed a special breed, I've worked with one using a DI, and this lady was like a wizard! (it was like magic, how fast she made my money disappear!)

Wow, I think I'm offended...

 

[M Most]

My experience with Creative Post was horrendous!......
The major post-production houses might have some of the most technically skilled individuals in the industry, but unless you are a major production or director/producer, they just don't care about you or your project, and will do the bare minimum. Guess what, I might be a nobody, but I work my butt off to get my films done with thousands of dollars and man hours invested, so I don't need nor appreciate some big shot 'technician' to treat me like an ignorant farmer because the way I label my footage is not to their liking!

So you're basing your opinion of the entire post production industry on one bad experience. That's not particularly fair, sensible, logical, or professional. Your opinion is not borne out by facts, it's formed based on one personal experience. Having worked in major post production facilities for about 30 years, I can say that your opinion is misinformed, inaccurate, and just plain wrong. But if you want to insist that it's not, I can't stop you. I have no idea who Creative Post is, where they are, who their personnel are, or what kind of projects they normally handle. But I do know that what you describe is just not applicable to any of the facilities I'm familiar with. And I'm familiar with an awful lot.

 

[Bas Majzoub]

Wow, I think I'm offended...

My apologies, it's not my intention to offend anybody, I actually have great respect for colorists, those folk are extremely talented and highly skilled, it's one of those skills that takes years to cultivate, and I have to admit, the Digital Intermediate process was actually quite fun and pleasant.

So you're basing your opinion of the entire post production industry on one bad experience. That's not particularly fair, sensible, logical, or professional. Your opinion is not borne out by facts, it's formed based on one personal experience. Having worked in major post production facilities for about 30 years, I can say that your opinion is misinformed, inaccurate, and just plain wrong. But if you want to insist that it's not, I can't stop you. I have no idea who Creative Post is, where they are, who their personnel are, or what kind of projects they normally handle. But I do know that what you describe is just not applicable to any of the facilities I'm familiar with. And I'm familiar with an awful lot.

How can an opinion be wrong? Creative Post is a large post-production house in Toronto, one of the two big ones the major productions use. My experience with them is not unique to myself. I know that I'm generalizing, and it isn't fair. My opinion, however, is based on fact. I'm not here to argue with anybody, so I'll take your word for it, and will keep it in mind the next time around (my next film will be on super16, and will need to go through the same process again, so I'll let you know). I think I was naive with those guys, and they took me to the cleaners and didn't give a crap about my project, which is why I'm never going back there again. At the end of the day people are people, and like a gentleman said earlier, I just have to be savvy. I did paint with a broad brush, and I apologize for it, however, I stand by my statement that the post-production industry is like the car mechanic industry, some are good, some are bad, and God help you if you go in there without knowing your stuff.

In any case, cheers man! :cheers2:

 

[Stephen Strangways]

Not to dispute Bas' bad experience at all, but just for sake of balance on the other side, my experiences with Creative Post have been positive.

I've dealt with Creative Post a number of times, outputting files to HDCAM tape. It's often been large, confusing jobs (15-20 unique tapes, plus some extra copies of just a few of the tapes) and I've dealt with two different techs, both of whom were patient and professional, and got the jobs done perfectly and in the exact time frame that was budgeted.

I once witnessed one of their customers request they do some completely unnecessary work, and the person from CP spent a long time trying to convince them they could quite simply and easily to do it entirely for free themselves. It was literally a single button press on a DVD player remote, but the customer insisted that it was too complicated for them to handle. It was with great reluctance that he eventually agreed to do what the customer requested and charge them for it.

I know about the upper left corner apple thingie, so ya, if it's supposed to be there, then it's not Intel =

Daniel mentioned a much simpler way of identifying it, and it's perfectly accurate:

To identify a G5 vs. Intel Mac Tower look at the front: If there is one optical drive bay it is a G5, if there are two it is an Intel Mac Pro.

Do check your computer, as I have encountered a lot of people mistakenly believing their Intel Mac Pros are only G5s.

 

[Bas Majzoub]

Not to dispute Bas' bad experience at all, but just for sake of balance on the other side, my experiences with Creative Post have been positive.

I've dealt with Creative Post a number of times, outputting files to HDCAM tape. It's often been large, confusing jobs (15-20 unique tapes, plus some extra copies of just a few of the tapes) and I've dealt with two different techs, both of whom were patient and professional, and got the jobs done perfectly and in the exact time frame that was budgeted.

I once witnessed one of their customers request they do some completely unnecessary work, and the person from CP spent a long time trying to convince them they could quite simply and easily to do it entirely for free themselves. It was literally a single button press on a DVD player remote, but the customer insisted that it was too complicated for them to handle. It was with great reluctance that he eventually agreed to do what the customer requested and charge them for it.


Daniel mentioned a much simpler way of identifying it, and it's perfectly accurate:

Do check your computer, as I have encountered a lot of people mistakenly believing their Intel Mac Pros are only G5s.

That's awesome man, and #1 it's great that you had no problems with them, my experience was a nightmare, and a close friend also had a troublesome experience, so hit and miss I guess! #2 Thanks for the tip, just checked it, ya it's not a Mac Pro. and finally #3 You guys are all amazing, I'm shocked at how courteous all of you have been!

 

[David Dennis]

I suspect I'm a bit like you - I have no money and little in the way of skill, and still think it would be interesting to play with the big boys. So hopefully my perspective can be helpful.

You might want to read a book called The Unkindest Cut, by Joe Queenan. He was determined to make "A Film" for cheap. I think he had a lot of fun doing it, but on the way he was massacred financially by an industry set up to deal with at least tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees and costs associated with even a minimal production. His alleged "$7,500 movie" became a $25,000 movie and than a $60,000 movie, and yet it was apparently so unwatchable that copies of it are not available anywhere despite the publicity and curiosity generated by the book. The book's hilarious. You need to read it. It's out of print, but I think you can get used copies on Amazon super-cheap.

You should understand that any time you deal with professional editors or colorists or anyone, their rates and services are designed for people with, well, an actual budget. On a typical movie on a "cheap" $300k-$1m budget, this is a lot more money than I think you have. So you threw your $6,000 in the ring without realizing that $6,000 is probably enough for one very fast pass through the material. After all, at $500-odd an hour this isn't many hours. Once the staff heard how upset you were about it, they probably, quite reasonably, never wanted to hear from you again.

So lesson one is that regardless of how great colorists, or editors, or sound engineers or anyone else may or may not be, you can't afford them. They are not leeches; they are just people whose business models revolve around labor-intensive, personal service you simply cannot afford.

You should have taken that $6,000 and bought a new or "slightly used" Mac Pro (as noted, your G5 won't cut it with RED Footage) and maybe a "battle tested" RED Rocket for $3k. You'll need oodles of internal disk (about $150 / 2TB last time I looked). Then you should have bought the entire Adobe suite of software ($2k or so) and/or Final Cut Studio (about $1k). You can sometimes buy old versions of this software and then pay the upgrade to update it; that can save you a lot. So for around $10k or so, you have everything you need to get a film through post.

Once you had your equipment, you should learn it, and expect learning it to take a very, very long time before you can come up with a usable product. But once you learn it, things will come more and more quickly over time. Another thing you need to do is your homework - learn about this industry and how it works. Reading the resources here can teach you a lot.

One suggestion I have for anyone starting is the "Group 101" approach. Group 101's members made a short film a month. Then they came together to watch and critique each other's products. You can learn a lot that way about what works and what doesn't without blowing a lot of money. Then once you want to do something big, the process isn't so terrifying because you've been through it in miniature.

A lot of the people here live in what seems like a very unreal financial world. "Master primes? Just $12,000 each? Great, I'll buy the whole set of ten, when can they be delivered?" Jim joked about a $70,000 RED EPIC-M Titanium Edition. People were lining up with their $70,000 checks until he admitted it was a joke.

The machined EPIC-M is a collector's item. Jim never expected to sell more than 50 or so. He's sold 250 and people still want them. $58,000, or maybe $20,000 more than a comparably equipped standard EPIC. Early RED adopters, having prospered through RED jobs, can afford things like this that might not even seem sensible even to Jim himself.

So this is not your industry. Its cost and price structure is not meant for you. But that doesn't mean you can't create an entertaining, watchable film that can still be fun for you and make a few bucks. You just have to do it all yourself, and give yourself time to learn. Pat yourself on the back when you succeed, try to fix your problems when you don't, and try to have fun. But don't think you can afford services the nice folks here use routinely. Do without or do them yourself, and don't think you can get a great product for $6k unless you do the whole thing on your own.

Remember that in the final analysis it's a great story or a great subject that sells. Even people who have made films with iPhone video cameras or cheap Canon point and shoots have been able to prosper, at one time or another. The important thing is the story, not to try and make perfect cinema. At our level, you can't. But you should be able to do a great story if you have one in you ... and story telling, in the end, is what this is all about.

I hope this perspective is of value, and isn't too discouraging.

D

 

[Bas Majzoub]

David,

Your words offend me. I do not think I have little in terms of skill, maybe not in video, but I've been shooting on my 16mm bolex since I was 15 years old, and I believe I'm pretty knowledgeable when it comes to shooting and manipulating film. Film-making is the love of my life and I adore the celluloid.

I do have to disagree with you about how it's always about the story. That is the most redundant statement ever. Film-making is an art, and even though story telling is an aspect of it, it is not the whole picture. Experiments in visual style and non-linear story telling are just as valid as any three act linear story. Also, not every story has to be a great masterpiece, sometimes the simpler the better. This idea that it's all about the story is bogus, it's like telling Dali that only portraits matter in painting, well no, I'm an artist, I write, I draw, I play music, and I make movies. I've written short stories, scripts, etc, and this project that is currently in post is as linear of a story as it gets, a straight forward dramatic piece about a family and the relationship between a father and his daughter, three acts, V/O and dialogue, with an emotionally heavy climax. And that was the point, that was the type of picture i wanted to make. It didn't need a crazy visual style, but it still looks damn good (I will admit, the RED is one sexy camera).

I've read plenty of books about film-making (Making Movies, Guerilla Film-making Handbook, Independent Film Distribution, Film-Making for Dummies, Film as Art, etc...), but where I get my skill is from the years of shooting on my trusted bolex, experimenting with shutter speeds, different lenses, filters, film-stock, frame rates, time-lapse, etc, as well as linear flat-bed editing. I also do everything in a project from location scouting, story-boarding, casting, editing, whatever it is, I do it, and that's the point, that's why we do what we do.

I might be small time, but that doesn't mean I want to do small time projects, nor do I want to limit myself. Even though I work my ass off saving money to shoot, I always find investors, and have held successful fundraisers. Money means nothing to me. For example, I'm paying a small chamber orchestra close to 10K to record a reduction of a Bach piece for this picture. Money is never an issue. I do it because I love it, it's in my blood.

The reason I got 'upset' with creative post was because there was a glitch in the sound, and even then I was still amicable, and only really got 'upset' once I got it a second time, and a scene was repeated TWICE!

This idea that things cost, therefore it's not my industry is absolutely ridiculous. Money is never an issue, and if that is my motivating factor, might as well shoot myself. I have such belief in my iron clad will, the power of my work ethic, and the strength of my passion, that such a trivial thing as money will never be an issue. You have no idea the types of sacrifices I'm willing to make (and have made) to get my films done, and that is all it takes, the willingness to sacrifice, not idiot money, money comes, and money goes, that's the way it always is.

My next project is a Napoleon Bonaparte film (I'm obsessed with the man, and consider myself an expert on the man's life and age, having read multiple scholarly books multiple of times). Now almost everybody I talk to says I'm crazy and I'll never be able to afford it/find the perfect location/get it done. Well, guess what, I just found the perfect location (wanted to charge me 5K/day + 2K setup, for a total of close to 20K, but guess what, I worked out a deal, the owners loved my passion and got the location for the three days for only 5K + I have to do some repairs on their interlocking driveway), I also found a seamstress that is willing the do the costumes I want (researched and period accurate) for only the cost of the fabric. Guess what? This supposedly impossible task of shooting a period piece is getting more and more possible. So money as an excuse to not do something is the talk of loosers, it's all will and passion.

Cheers, eh?

B.

 

[Ben Brainerd]

That's a pretty aggressive statement, given that pretty much everything David said is *factually* correct.

Fact: 'Big' Post houses like Creative post are, in fact, set up for 'Big' productions. Not knowing them, I can't know whether your smaller production was treated significantly differently. My guess is that his take on the scenario (Minus the opinion about the staff at the end) is right on. $6000 doesn't go very far with a big house. Without seeing your invoice, I can only assume you were paying pretty close to standard rate, so it's not surprising that there were a few errors. There are *ALWAYS* errors/flaws. It's about how you work with them.

Were you running a short or a feature through Creative Post? If it's a feature, I gotta be honest but $6000 is peanuts. It would take an *amazingly* cool project for me (Freelance Colorist) to look at a feature for that price.

Fact: Colorists cost money. It's not that they're trying to bleed you dry, it's a combination of the business model ("Only so many people are hiring Colorists, how much do I need to charge to eat for the whole year?") and the hefty setup costs. Even a *BASIC* color suite costs in the $30,000 range. That's a lot of expense to make up.

I don't want to come off too harsh, but I find it vaguely funny that on one hand you're railing about post houses, and on the other hand you're bragging about negotiating your way into a sweet location. Why not take those negotiation skills and find yourself some freelancers? Freelancers will tend to have better rates, since they're not subsidizing less-profitable departments, and I guarantee you they'll be more open to a negotiated rate. I (and pretty much every other freelancer I know) have made significant cuts to my rate if someone comes to me with a cool project. Just be aware that just because *you* are passionate about the film doesn't mean everyone you talk to will be.

In short, Post costs money. We can talk about how money doesn't make a good film forever, but it won't change the reality of the situation. The way I see it, you've got three choices: 1) Acknowledge that paying for professionals is going to cost 2) Buy the necessary gear and do it yourself or 3) Find a freelancer who you can convince to work cheap.

 

[Bas Majzoub]

Thank you Ben, I appreciate your candor. I was a bit a defensive, agreed, but I don't react well to veiled insults, although I wasn't insulting in any way towards him, at least wasn't trying to.

As far as a freelancer, I'm with you, and that is what I might end up doing. I just was (and still am) seriously considering doing it myself, why not, right? I know what I want, and learning this could be a lot of fun. I called one guy today and left a message, he hasn't called back, but the freelance route was always my first option (if I can't upgrade my own gear to do it myself), and there is no-way I'm going to a post-production house, especially not for 'video' work. Honestly, it'd just be a waste of money.

Again, I understand why colorists charge so much, the gear alone cost as much as a house, at least a down payment on a house, so I understand completely, and the work with the colorist at Creative Post was a lot of fun, and was really was the only exciting part of that whole experience. My problem was with the editor and everything else that happened at the end. The DI and the colour correct work was crazy fun, and have no complaints.

But ya, freelance, I know that, just wanted to see if my gear could potentially handle it/what I would need.

 

[jake blackstone]

The DI and the colour correct work was crazy fun, and have no complaints.
Having said that, those colorists are indeed a special breed, I've worked with one using a DI, and this lady was like a wizard! (it was like magic, how fast she made my money disappear!)

How do you reconcile the two statements you made?

 

[shashbugu]

And post-production houses are all crooks, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one disenfranchised by their shady practices.

Thats not a very nice thing to say. Its actually a terrible thing to say. You are seeking the advice of post production professionals, but you figure its okay to insult them,.... not cool!

now thats clear,

For your project shot on the Red, if you want to stick to your Mac G5 workflow, I highly suggest you find a reduser.net member in Canada with a RedRocket and have him do a one-light debayer-transfer of you Red footage to a Prores 422 10bit 1080P codec. You can then work with this in your NLE of choice and output your desired 1080P delivery. You will still get the high quality film-like product you will appreciate.

I hope this helps

 

[Bas Majzoub]

How do you reconcile the two statements you made?

The special breed statement was not meant in a negative sense, and the disappearing money thing was meant as a joke, no offense intended.

Thats not a very nice thing to say. Its actually a terrible thing to say. You are seeking the of post production professionals, but you figure its okay to insult them,.... not cool!

now thats clear,

For you project shot on the Red, if you want to stick to your Mac G5 workflow, I highly suggest you find A reduser.net member in Canada with a Red-Rocket and have him do a one-light debayer-transfer of you Red footage to a Prores 422 10bit 1080P codec for you. You can then work with this in your NLE of choice and output your desired 1080P delivery. You will still get a high quality film-like product you will appreciate.

I hope this helps

You know what, you're right, I can see how that can be offensive, heck, it is offensive, so for that, please accept my apology, you've all been super helpful, and I've at times been insulting and rude, forgive my insensitivity and idiocy, I sometimes type without thinking. :emote_hippie:

You guys really are great, btw, and it does help, another idea, another option

 

[Jay Gannon]

How do you reconcile the two statements you made?

I think he was trying to allude to the fact that you have to pay for quality.

Bas: If you can find tens of thousands for an orchestra and for locations then you've either got your priorities all skewed or something is very amiss here.

If you want to play with the big boys (Post houses etc) its expensive but you get what you pay for. A 6 grand contract is a pittance to a large post house. I would recommend you find a smaller established house that you can go into talk through your project and get it all sorted.

Your not going to be able to online and color your own project, the amount of money you will put into a capital investment on equipment would more than pay for a DI and Color in a small house. And the quality will be very poor as your not a professional colorist or DI operator. Thats just fact, these guys are good at what they do and charge accordingly.

Look into what kinda rates you;d get from someone like Jake if you want to go the freelance route that can work too, but I would recommend going to a smaller house that caters to low budget indy producers like yourself as they will have experience dealing with your situation and will handle you better than any large post house.

Hope that helps.

 

[Bas Majzoub]

I think he was trying to allude to the fact that you have to pay for quality.

Bas: If you can find tens of thousands for an orchestra and for locations then you've either got your priorities all skewed or something is very amiss here.

If you want to play with the big boys (Post houses etc) its expensive but you get what you pay for. A 6 grand contract is a pittance to a large post house. I would recommend you find a smaller established house that you can go into talk through your project and get it all sorted.

Your not going to be able to online and color your own project, the amount of money you will put into a capital investment on equipment would more than pay for a DI and Color in a small house. And the quality will be very poor as your not a professional colorist or DI operator. Thats just fact, these guys are good at what they do and charge accordingly.

Look into what kinda rates you;d get from someone like Jake if you want to go the freelance route that can work too, but I would recommend going to a smaller house that caters to low budget indy producers like yourself as they will have experience dealing with your situation and will handle you better than any large post house.

Hope that helps.

O trust me, I haven't paid them yet! :laugh: I've always wanted to work with an orchestra, it's just another level for me, and for $7,300 (plus the studio time), it really is not a lot of money, considering I'll own that piece of music forever! Not to mention the fact that this will be one heck of an experience, recording with a small chamber orchestra, now that's rad! We record at the end of May, and my job pays well, so it's all good As far as the location, I needed a special look, not only an 18th century home (luckily the story takes place before Josephine moved to Chateau Malmaison), but I specifically want painted ceilings with arches and old style glass in the windows (the small squares), and good luck finding that in Ontario, so when I found this location, I was boner happy! Truth is, even if they didn't budge, I still wold have had to go with them, there really isn't another place like it around these parts. The house is almost another character in the story, so it's a huge priority.

A small post production house over a freelancer, eh? Hmm, you could be right. It's kind of disappointing that I prolly wont be able to do it myself, but I've learnt so much already, just from what some of you lovely people have said. I'll do some research, and will get quotes.

Thanks!

 

[shashbugu]

A bit of advice for shooting Red footage.
Post houses love Red footage, at least all the ones I have come across, its simply easier for them to work with. But as a rule of thumb no post professional likes to be consulted after a shoot. It does not matter if its sound, editorial or DI.
It is always good to talk to a Post house before you shoot. They are some of the nicest guys out there, they always want to produce the coolest looking and sounding stuff, thats why they are in this business.
Its rare and honestly I've personally never met a post guy or house who will blow you off during pre-production. If you consult with any professional during pre-production you will save so much time, energy, and money. Always remember, your project is as much theirs as it is yours. Nobody wants to waste time in their lives working on ****.
Most experienced colorist really understand Red stock's characteristics. They have worked with many clients who have used different types of lights etc. They know better than you and I do. They will show you all kinds of cool creative things you can experiment with and add to the value of your production. I have even had colorist show up on set and work with the art directors and cinematographers to come up with the coolest color concepts and lighting to match tones, subject matter and textures. Believe me everybody loves the colorist even the clean up crew. If a production you worked on ends up looking super sexy and cool, you'll get a hell of a lot accolades and work.
Pay your colorist. If your story sucks, but sounds good and looks good, you'll have a good reel.

 

[Bas Majzoub]

I've been reading around these forums, and man, the wealth of knowledge is incredible! I feel like I'm being schooled!

And everybody is so polite and intelligent! This truly is a wonderful community! :cheers2:

 

[Louis Maddalena]

It is a pretty awesome place. The people here are all awesome and whats best about it is we are all experienced in the industry regardless of what department we're from. Like you are more experienced than some here at producing but they might be much better at color or editing than you and thats what makes this place great, a communal effort of teaching each other and progressing through each others strengths and weaknesses so that we all can learn something and apply it towards are future projects.

 

[Marc Wielage]

The reason I got 'upset' with creative post was because there was a glitch in the sound, and even then I was still amicable, and only really got 'upset' once I got it a second time, and a scene was repeated TWICE!

I suspect your issues could have been solved if you had a good post production supervisor to help you. This is what a post sup does: help avoid problems, stop issues from happening before they do, and if they happen anyway, negotiate a fix (free in this case) that won't slow you down or affect your bill. I think your strategic error was trying to do it all yourself.

Mike Most elsewhere is right: as a colorist myself in LA (for the better part of three decades), I've worked very hard trying to save clients money -- even going so much as to knock an hour or two off the bill here and there, warn them when they're about to go over their schedule, and also to suggest some shortcuts that won't affect their picture quality or delivery. My experience with 90% of the big-time post houses out there is: they cringe when they have to work with small-time filmmakers, because they know they're going to have to help the filmmakers handle problems they hadn't anticipated. Sometimes, you're better off making a deal with a smaller facility just because they can give you personal service and more time than you can get from the bigger firms, especially nowadays.

This supposedly impossible task of shooting a period piece is getting more and more possible. So money as an excuse to not do something is the talk of loosers, it's all will and passion.

It's not always just about will and passion; it's also about how many compromises you're willing to accept during the process.

BTW: I was the colorist on El Mariachi back 1992, and also later on, Spy Kids II as well. Robert was terrific to work with, and he knows how to save money in post by being very well-prepared, by being decisive, and knowing his footage as thoroughly as any director I've ever worked with. Absolute top-notch guy.

 

[Benoît-Joan Clariana-Roig]

Why don't you use the low resolution proxies from RED footage to do offline edit and then you render in the resolution you want (Full HD, 2K or 4K) ?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

And post-production houses are all crooks, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one disenfranchised by their shady practices.

Having said that, those colorists are indeed a special breed, I've worked with one using a DI, and this lady was like a wizard! (it was like magic, how fast she made my money disappear!)

I worked with this director who didn't have a clue what he was doing.
Directors don't know what they are doing.


Generalization = tricky