Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Long-Term Storage of RED-One footage "other than hard drives" ??

George D.

George D.

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 22, 2008
Messages
980
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
N. California, USA
Hi there everybody.

Other than external hard drives or arrays, is there an additional way to store RED-One footage for long term?

Storing the footage on Blu-Ray discs would work, but you only get about 6-1/2 minutes on each disc. Tape media has been suggested to me, but tape is OUT in my book. I'm just looking for a way digitally back up the footage "outside" of an electronic medium like hard drives.

I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks.

.
 
and why NOT HDD's ?? they are the most AFFORDABLE solution. I DOUBLE back EVERYTHING up to HDD....what is a 2TB HDD now? $125 on sale? I run two E-sata 5 bay hot swap boxes.....so 20TB online storage. Then have backup of that in a safe.....My plan...is every year or TWO....backup the media AGAIN, when we have 3TB or 4TB drives for similar price---3tB is available now, but not at the low rate like the 2tb drives....BUT, i'd imagine next year we have 4TB drives....Then, keep this up until SSD is AS affordable and transfer AGAIN.

....you want to keep up with technology, you got to roll with it.....Tape is nice, but then an LTO, expensive tapes vs. Hdd. Yes, i've heard downside of Hdd. but NEVER have i had a problem and I keep TWO copies.....so chances are pretty much in my favor....I'd bet i have a WAY better chance of getting bitten by a shark than have two HDD's of same material fail me on same day--WAIT, i dive with sharks regularly---YES, I DO stand a better chance of being bitten by a shark!

....HDD is best bet in my book for the $$$. Tape was great at it's time, but capacity is just not enough and can't keep it online like HDD.
 
The OP asked about long term storage.
HDD are cheap, but they are designed to spin not sit on the shelf. If you plan on storing your footage long term on a HDD (even two sets) chances are pretty high you will lose your footage.

How much did it cost to acquire your footage? Is it worth risking?
 
Johnny Friday said:
and why NOT HDD's ?? they are the most AFFORDABLE solution. I DOUBLE back EVERYTHING up to HDD....what is a 2TB HDD now? $125 on sale? I run two E-sata 5 bay hot swap boxes.....so 20TB online storage. Then have backup of that in a safe.....My plan...is every year or TWO....backup the media AGAIN, when we have 3TB or 4TB drives for similar price---3tB is available now, but not at the low rate like the 2tb drives....BUT, i'd imagine next year we have 4TB drives....Then, keep this up until SSD is AS affordable and transfer AGAIN.
Click to expand...

Bad bad bad bad idea to have non spinning hard drives as a backup, when you go back to those drives and find that the heads have stuck to the platters you will have lost all your backups.

Hard drives are not a viable backup plan for anything other than the short term. Store short term on HDD's then long term onto LTO 4/5/6. LTO is currently the only viable long term digital backup solution, other than film-out and store the negative.
 
Johnny Friday said:
and why NOT HDD's ?? they are the most AFFORDABLE solution. I DOUBLE back EVERYTHING up to HDD....what is a 2TB HDD now? $125 on sale? I run two E-sata 5 bay hot swap boxes.....so 20TB online storage. Then have backup of that in a safe.....My plan...is every year or TWO....backup the media AGAIN, when we have 3TB or 4TB drives for similar price---3tB is available now, but not at the low rate like the 2tb drives....BUT, i'd imagine next year we have 4TB drives....Then, keep this up until SSD is AS affordable and transfer AGAIN.

....you want to keep up with technology, you got to roll with it.....Tape is nice, but then an LTO, expensive tapes vs. Hdd. Yes, i've heard downside of Hdd. but NEVER have i had a problem and I keep TWO copies.....so chances are pretty much in my favor....I'd bet i have a WAY better chance of getting bitten by a shark than have two HDD's of same material fail me on same day--WAIT, i dive with sharks regularly---YES, I DO stand a better chance of being bitten by a shark!

....HDD is best bet in my book for the $$$. Tape was great at it's time, but capacity is just not enough and can't keep it online like HDD.
Click to expand...

You've got a great sense of humor John. Thanks for the advise. Of course, I have yet to find a 2TB hard drive for $125.oo.

.
 
Johnny Friday said:
N.

....you want to keep up with technology, you got to roll with it.....Tape is nice, but then an LTO, expensive tapes vs. Hdd. Yes, i've heard downside of Hdd. but NEVER have i had a problem and I keep TWO copies.....so chances are pretty much in my favor....I'd bet i have a WAY better chance of getting bitten by a shark than have two HDD's of same material fail me on same day--WAIT, i dive with sharks regularly---YES, I DO stand a better chance of being bitten by a shark!
Click to expand...

As someone who worked in Storage Tech for a number of years I can conclusively say that you wouldn't say that if you'd been around as many hard drives as I have, you just haven't used enough or dealt with enough storage yet, if you rely on HDD's you will get burned trust me.
 
Jay Gannon said:
Bad bad bad bad idea to have non spinning hard drives as a backup, when you go back to those drives and find that the heads have stuck to the platters you will have lost all your backups.

Hard drives are not a viable backup plan for anything other than the short term. Store short term on HDD's then long term onto LTO 4/5/6. LTO is currently the only viable long term digital backup solution, other than film-out and store the negative.
Click to expand...

"non-spinning" hard drive ???
 
No by non-spinning I meant a hard drive that was being used for storage but not powered up and spinning, once a hard drive stops spinning it is susceptible to a phenomenon called stickton and other degrading effects, this is why no archival facility will use hard drives for long term storage as they need to be allowed to continue spinning to maintain their data integrity.
So unless your going to have a powered backup site where your backups can be kept spinning and offloaded every 1-2 years onto fresh drives LTO tape is a better, more archival, and safter method for backing up data,
 
OK, I get the point. So I'd like to ask everybody a couple of favors:

1 - No disrespect intended, but please stop using abbreviations for everything. It is getting waaaay out of hand, and makes it even more difficult for those of us that have only been into digital film making for a short while to understand what the heck you're talking about.

2 - Where can I get one of these "reasonably" priced tape back up systems, I believe you guys are calling LTOs ?

Thanks.
 
a LTO backup system can be a bit complicated. It will literally require a computer set up to support it, with a SAS card, or in lamens terms a type of fiber card. that connects to the LTO unit itself, which can be external, or internal, at different heights.

There are also multiple standards of LTO, with a number next to it, representing the generation of technology it's from, which correlates to storage capacity. LTO 5 being the newest has more storage per tape on LTO 5 tape than a LTO 4 deck would with LTO 4 tapes.

Generally the deck can read one generation of tapes prior, but can only write to what they are now.

Then you need software to interpret the drive to the operating system. A lot vary, but I find that with a mac tower, SAS card from ATTO, and a external HP deck works very nicely with software from BRU PE. You can actually go to their website and buy the full package there. Deck, card, and software.

The tapes you can find online at tapestockonline.com and a variety of other resellers. It's definitely NOT a plug and play device. It requires some know how and setting up. If you already have a mac tower, you should be able to have a LTO for the computer for maybe 7 thousand? maybe less, I don't have all the numbers in front of me.
 
Guys.....a gang rape if feels like. I can only speak from experience as of 1997 on....been with online HDD's and NEVER a problem. In fact in the field it's how we work....deliverables etc....and same with the server that we uploaded to. Now... I won't disagree that there can be downs to consumer HDD's. but if anyone has been to the test....i certainly have. It's in fact how i've run my stock footage for EVER. NOT ONCE since 2001 have i had a drive fail from anything OTHER than dropping it or WINDOWS use. My storage drives have been 100% safe. Yep.....bring on the gang rape again. Sure, anything can happen, and one day a tape drive might eat up a tape....had that happen A LOT...or 120f heat where i live basically melts tapes when left in the heat (inside my home-when i'm gone for a month on a shoot--had that happen as well). But always came back to my HDD's.....i guess we have different experiences. So wont' argue....anything can happen to tape or hdd under the right circumstances.

You wont convince me nor will i convince you. But i also don't put them on a shelf for 5 years as you may have suggested. I originally started with 120gb hdd's, then went to 250gb; 320; 500, 750; 1tb 2tb etc....so i'm continually on top of moving to new drives and AWAITING SSD at an affordable price and size.

**i'm not typically ARCHIVING footage to review in 20 years...i'm using it weekly for sale or use on other documentaries etc....so i NEED ONLINE and instant access.

PRICE: don't be silly....you can get these Hitachi 2TB 3.5" SATA 7200rpm drives anyplace for $169 retail and I have bought 20 or so at Fry's on sale at $129 + tax....so unless you live on mars then those prices are REAL. Just do a simple search before you bash me on pricing:
http://www.google.com/search?source...0CCsQrQQ&biw=1039&bih=943&fp=7ed1b761d79a69af

Whoops: looks like you can get them on sale for $119.....my mistake
 
Johnny Friday said:
**i'm not typically ARCHIVING footage to review in 20 years...i'm using it weekly for sale or use on other documentaries etc....so i NEED ONLINE and instant access.
Click to expand...

This is not "Long Term Storage", this is called "on-line storage".
 
Another option using HDDs might be to archive on the VERY inexpensive green drives (5400 rpm), get a docking station and then spin up the drives every few months.
 
Johnny, I think your solution is most practical, like you I have many drives from the past 20 years, of continually increasing capacities, and transfer to newer larger drives every once and awhile. So far, I have never had any of the drives not be readable.

Certainly stiction is a potential problem, but IIRC most drives park the heads in a neutral zone so the data itself is unaffected so should be recoverable even if the drive itself won't spin up.

No backup system is reliable if you don't use it which to me is the problem with slow/difficult/expensive systems.

Obviously if you are responsible for archiving high value footage for clients you need to use systems that meet the "conventional wisdom" simply to avoid the appearance of negligence if something happens and you get sued.

But for yourself, hard drives (and eventually solid state) with two or more redundant backups (spinning the up every few months as elsie says) probably make the most sense. Also remember that usually only portions of your footage is really unique and valuable - so put those on solid state now. We thought it was a breakthrough when 18gig raids dropped to $2500 in the 90s, now a 16 gig thumb drive is $30 at staples.
 
Elsie N said:
Another option using HDDs might be to archive on the VERY inexpensive green drives (5400 rpm), get a docking station and then spin up the drives every few months.
Click to expand...

pretty much what i do every year......and dump to a new drive. So my short term solution has lasted now since 97. but i agree....would not have stored a drive for 14 years in a box.
 
my personal thing is, i get tired of having drives pile up, i really wanna start recycling them for editorial work or short term storage. the matter of dumping to new drives will leave me buried in drives like a hoarder.

I don't like throwing out working drives either, I have hard time letting to :P

but LTO is nice that I can just throw it on a tape, and shelve it in a cool semi dry closet, and not have to look at it until I really need it, even if it's 10 years from now and I wanna dig up some old stuff.

smaller, compact, LESS worries, not void of worries.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top