Red in Universities and colleges

[Bruce Byker James]

I work at Temple University in Philadelphia, PA as the Media Technology Coordinator at the School of Communications and Theater. We have a Red One, which gets tons of use by the students here. I'm wondering what other universities/colleges have Reds and how you deal with the various issues that arise from having students use such a wonderful but complicated tool.

Our system: Students learn the camera from instructors in a classroom setting and those instructors certify that the student knows how to use the camera (passing them). Once a student is passed on the Red, they can check it out for short periods (3-5 days), but they have to go through a special reservation system that requires an instructor signature. Currently, the instructors who know the most about the Red are graduate students working either as grad assistants or teaching their own classes.

We currently only have the Red 17-50mm zoom that stays with the camera. Students also shoot 2k using our supply of super16 lenses (mostly Arri/Zeiss) and 4k using rented lenses and occasionally the Angenieux 20-120 zoom we have for our 35BL package.

Post production: We have a bunch of quad core mac pros, but monitor size is a bit limited. I'm looking into setting up a color correction system using a Black Magic Multibridge.

The future: Epic stage 3 is looking very appealing. The Scarlet fixed sounds like a good option, but I'm particularly interested in the Scarlet 2/3 because of all the 16mm and Super16mm glass we have.

And, of course, everything is subject to budget and we're currently looking at possible cuts in state funding.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Interesting post, Bruce. We currently do not own a RED One, but bring one in on a regular basis from a local production company that we have close ties with. Their REDs (they have two) are available for students to use on thesis projects (at a bargain rental rate when otherwise not in use), but only after a complete orientation and training program. Even at that, we have had a few scary incidents, including one where a lens got mis-threaded and the camera required major surgery.

We are expanding our cinematography program and are seriously considering adding an EPIC and/or multiple Scarlets later this year. Right now, most of our students are shooting on DSLRs, using Canon or Nikon still lenses. One of my big concerns is how to properly train and clear the students to use these cameras without damage...especially once we start to build up an inventory of expensive glass. So far my experience is, if it can be broken, it will be at some point. I'd be interested on your thoughts about this.

We also use Mac Pros for post-production with Final Cut Studio and Adobe Production Premium suite on them. I just spec'ed a RED Rocket/Foundry Storm/MC Color controller system for a dedicated color correction system. I am firmly convinced that the EPIC and Scarlet, combined with RED Rocket/Storm post-workflow represent the future of the industry and want to make sure that our students are experienced in their use when they hit the job market.

 

[RivaiC]

Hi Tom, one question, why didn't university start teaching their student with film first but digital ? Isn't the foundation lies in film instead of digital ?

It's a little off from the original topic..but im curious

Rivai

 

[Bruce Byker James]

Tom -

That's an interesting arrangement with the rental house. I've wondered in the past about setting something like that up with lenses (There are quite a few Red One packages in Philadelphia).

On the training front, the classes that currently train undergraduates on the Red have several prerequisites, so by the time they get their hands on the Red, they've at least gone through a filmmaking class and learned to respect a Bolex and they've also typically had some experience with PL mount Super16 cameras. They tend to have a decent amount of respect for lenses by this point.

Graduate students have also gone through pretty rigorous film-based cinematography education, though they aren't required to have as much hands-on experience—the students who are more interested in the DP route shoot for the more directing-oriented students.

It seems likely that in the future there will be a non-film route to the Red, in which case I'm hoping there will be another interchangeable-lens camera before the Red One (or Epic by that time) - possibly Scarlets or Sony PMWF3.

We've had the Red in student hands since Fall 2009 and I think the worst thing that's happened so far was when someone broke off the screw from the LCD mount in the camera. There has been no lens damage, nobody has dropped the camera, and nothing has gotten any more broken than a screw falling off and getting lost.

We have a lot of DSLR shoots happening here as well. Mostly personal cameras, though we do have a 5D available with some okay lenses. Several students have shot with the Red and used the 5d as a B-cam for things like driving shots.

Rivai -

As I described above, our students do, for the most part, go the film first route, at least to get to the Red. There is a no-film route for undergrads, though, and we definitely get good work from those students, too, they just don't end up using the Red (yet). Currently all graduate students learn film their first semester, but that's probably going to change soon.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

in here Turkey,Clint Lealos and his gang gave a lesson about Red at Bilgi University last week.Clint is the most experienced Reduser in Turkey.

 

[Peter Mosiman]

DePaul University in Chicago has 2 Red MX's. 2 sets of Red Pro Primes. 1 set of older Zeiss primes. Both are gorgeous. And a 5:1 Cooke.

It has been invaluable to be able to shoot 4 large projects on amazing cameras before I graduate from school.

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

I am the production director of a student production organization at Brown University, BTV, and we are also struggling with these issues. If we can get the budget for it, we would like to get a Scarlet fixed, and in the eventual future with better funding an Epic-S. However, we're concerned that very few of our members will have the technical skill to use it properly, the risk of loaning out equipment that is that valuable, and also about being able to deal with the 3K workflow. Right now all we have is a DSLR and a couple XH-A1's. Brown's film program (we don't even have a real department -- its lumped in with semiotics and other postmodern theoretical drivel) has DSLR's, some HD camcorders, Bolex's and a few Aaton XTR's which unfortunately very few people use because so many students think the DSLR's look good enough and don't want to spend the money on film.

It shocks me how many film majors have absolutely no clue how to even set an exposure correctly. In my opinion, if you are going to graduate with a major that is unlikely to ever get you a job, you had better at least be damn good at it. There are a few of us (most of whom aren't film majors), who have taught ourselves enough that we think we can actually make use of a camera like the Scarlet. Mostly, we're concerned that once we graduate there will be no one to take our places.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Rival -

We used to have students shoot on film, but the economics of film just don't work for us compared with digital in a teaching situation. Between the cost of film stock, processing, and the time delay in getting footage back, it is just not workable, especially in a program like ours, which is rather unique.

We are an accredited, cinema-only college, which offers students an Associates of Science degree (60 credit hours) in a highly-accelerated 12 month program (plus a mandatory 2 month industry internship). Our program is "script to screen", and teaches story development, screenwriting, directing, producing, cinematography, grip & lighting, editing and post, and a few more. It is unusual in that every student has to take every class, regardless of their particular area of interest...so budding directors have to learn to light and shoot, and screenwriters have to learn to edit, etc. We feel that produces more well-rounded and experienced people who are ready to work immediately at an entry level when they leave school. It is not a typical 4 year college situation...it is very intense. We throw 'em right into the deep end of the pool and keep the pressure on until graduation. For our timetable and how much they have to learn in a short time, digital makes much more sense.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Bruce -

Thanks for the input! Many of our students have personal DSLRs and we will probably get a 5D at some point, just for it's ease of use. We do have a variety of camcorders including various HDV and HVX200 available, but are gradually phasing them out. We've debated getting some other interchangeable lens cameras, like the AF100, but frankly, I'd rather have the students get their hands on the RED and get familiarity with it right from the beginning. I think that RED is much more representative of what they will encounter out in the industry, and our focus is on turning out students that are well-trained and ready to go to work. Plus I really want them to learn RED post workflow, for the same reason. We used to have students shoot on film, but didn't own our own cameras or lenses (rental house again), so we don't have a lot of legacy film equipment available (this is both good and bad). Good in that we are starting with a clean sheet of paper, bad in that budgets are tight everywhere and we have to squeeze every dollar until it screams for mercy.

Grand Rapids is a fairly small city, with only three MXs in town (that I know of), but we are only 2 hours from both Detroit and Chicago which both have large rental houses as well as a large quantity of privately-owned REDs. That gives us a large pool of lenses and gear to pull from if needed.

I see both the Scarlets (fixed and the interchangeable with Mini Primes) as being great, affordable teaching tools, and the EPIC-S will provide a significant increase in performance from the Scarlets. Maybe I'll have to reserve the EPIC for just the real DPs in the class...they generally have more respect for the sensitive gear than the guys who want to be grips LOL.

 

[Louis Maddalena]

Oh wow, and now I'm realizing how far behind my university was in terms of gear. We started out learning on film and shot 2 projects on 16mm and a few shorter thing just to get used to film before those projects. After that we moved to digital and we used JVC 720p cameras that the teacher just believed was the most amazing thing on earth. In a few years if I still live near my university and have a few red cameras, I'll probably start a system where students can rent at a good rate red cameras for their projects because i think having professional gear is an important part of the education. As much as knowing the theories behind shooting are important, you also don't want to be somebody on set after you graduate who has never seen the equipment before and doesn't know how to use it.

 

[jake blackstone]

I work with local LA film schools quite a bit. My knowledge comes from my conversations with students. Most of UCLA production is shot on two RED cameras, that school owns (I know at least one is MX, but by now it's probably both) with a few Canons in between. I'm sure someone from UCLA (JPCastel?) will be able to give more precise account. Most of AFI I get is on film. I haven't done much with USC, but my understanding, it's a SONY sponsored film program, so majority of films there are shot on SONY gear.

 

[Ryland Jones]

Wanted to add my two cents.

I attended Florida State University's Film School. We have 8 REDS at the moment, 6 complete packages if I'm not mistaken.

Got them back in 2008. My class was the first to shoot our undergrad thesis projects on RED. We had been shooting 16mm film up until then, but where given the choice of either for our thesis.

Some films are done with 16mm primes, (BFA), and some, 35mm primes (MFA).

As for post, they have a pretty huge server for post, with fiber running to the main computers for transcoding and dallies screening. Otherwise, we edit with transcoded prores and then do a coloring pass in RED and Color for finishing.

I will say, as I sit here D.I.T-ing a RED feature in NY, I am very happy to have learned the technology during school, and be able to jump right into professional sets without missing a step.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Moderators, how about moving this thread to RED Discussion?

Moderators, how about moving this thread to RED Discussion?

I noticed that the forums are undergoing a little reorganization. This thread is not really about RED One, but about RED cameras in general used in colleges and universities. It is a very interesting thread to those of us in higher education, and I'd suggest moving it to the RED Discussion forum. Thanks!

 

[David Rasberry]

I'm thinking a 2/3" Scarlet Cinema with PL mount makes a lot of sense for schools with legacy16mm and S16mm optics in inventory. Should be an economical way in to shooting Red and learning digital raw work flow without quite the data storage issues of 4k and up.

 

[J. Michael Vargas]

Just an addition to what Ryland said, we just updated all of our RED One bodies to the M-X sensor at FSU, so all 8 of those now run that system. It's a little buggy, but it's going well from what I have seen the grad thesis films are currently shooting right now. We have gotten a lot more streamlined in our post process in the past couple of semesters, and run a good system. For some reason, they insist we bake out to ProRes 422, they say it saves space, but not really in the grand scheme. But we never get to bake out to 2K and definitely never to 4K.

 

[nigelsmith]

Interesting thread!
I bought a Red one in 2009 for the MA Filmmaking course here at Goldsmiths, a University of London college.
Students are recruited in roles - director, producer, editor, sound, camera, lighting.
First exercise is on S16mm, then a Red project, then they choose for their main production.
We still can't afford 4K glass - using S16mm Zeiss Distagon mark II primes, Canon 8-64 , Zoomar 90mm macro, Kinoptik 5.7mm, Canon 300mm etc, and Arri MB16 + FF2 with [home] adapted Arri quickplate.
We edit on Avid with DNX185x renders from Redcine-x, using MX02 mini with Panasonic Plasma and SD CRT monitoring. So far we've only finished to Digibeta and Blu-ray. Projects compare favourably to S16mm without the stock and lab costs.
I look forward to getting hold of Red lenses one day soon and going 4k.... unlikely in the current funding environment...... but to be honest many cinematography students here barely cope with 2K DOF at the moment.

I'm hoping to get a fixed Scarlet asap for undergraduate film option [and 2nd unit on MA programme], but need to buy new camera by autumn. Here's hoping.

Would be interested to hear more of other Red based film school setups :smile5: