28k sensor and media?

[Anthony Survant]

I was just wondering how you would possibly record from the sensor? And is it aimed for studios or NASA? Wasn't sure...

I've just been trying to learn more about the SSD options and such and this question has been on my mind.

Thanks for any responses.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Well the 28K frame would be about 252 megapixels, which equates to about 480MB per frame. If we shoot 10:1 REDCODE compression, that's 48MB/frame 1152MB/s at 24fps.

Yeah, we're going to need bigger and faster media.

The cameras are aimed at anyone who needs the resolution and frame size. It's going to be a big deal for large format digital signage, motion graphics, and more. There's enough sensor there to shoot side-by-side 3D using a specialized dual-lens mount that could electronically control focus, IOD, convergence, etc..

 

[Shane Betts]

Also as a stills camera it will be untouched. There simply isn't a sensor that size out there, let alone one that can shoot sequences.

But for motion, you'd need, now, something along the lines of a PCIe or 8Gb/s FC RAID. Hardly workable for landscapes. But, according to Moore's Law, by the time the camera is shipping, storage shouldn't be far away.

 

[conrad gaunt]

Larger images tend to compress better, so while the maximum data rate may be through the roof, the average may not be such simple math

 

[Jeff Coatney]

How does the Phantom handle its data? Ram block? Burst rate, then download?

 

[Anthony Survant]

How does the Phantom handle its data? Ram block? Burst rate, then download?

I'm never used one (go figure), but from what I've read on other sites the Phantom uses RAM like that. Like you record a brief clip and then have to dump it and if you turn off your camera you lose your footage, so your camera needs to stay on until you offload the footage.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Last I shot with a Phantom HD, we had 512GB "cine mags". I'm not up on all the details of compression, etc..

Conrad is right, larger images do compress better and this is indeed so with wavelet style compression. However, we're not going to gain enough compression in relation to frame size to enable 5:1, let alone 10:1 for motion on the current SSD media. Perhaps using multiple SSDs in an array might work or we'll have faster media. The technology to build the faster media exists, but there's still significant development work to be done to create the proper interfaces and interconnects to support the necessary data rates.

Even if we're limited to stills or 3 to 4 fps on current media, I would still be very interested in buying the 617 camera. It can only improve in performance as media improves and it would be seriously useful even as a stills and/or low FPS camera.

I'm definitely buying the EPIC-645 when it arrives. I'm really thinking of scaling back my Epic-X plans in anticipation of the 645. I'm ready to be first in line for the 645, if they'll let me.

@Shane... If my quick-calculated numbers are anywhere close, you would need a lot more than an 8Gb connection. You will probably need two of them.

I can't wait to see how this all unfolds. The thought of shooting with a camera where the *COMPRESSED* data could exceed 1GB/s is just too damn exciting. And it's kinda funny to think that an LTO-5 tape may only store 20 minutes of 28K R3D footage. Heh heh heh...

 

[Tom.Wong]

How does the Phantom handle its data? Ram block? Burst rate, then download?

32 gb ram buffer first. everything is recorded to RAM first. the camera is ALWAYS recording to ram, you press the record button to set the trigger, and it just stores what was in the ram as a clip. the camera never "stops" recording. there are markers you can set to just shift at what point in time you wanna record. hard to explain on paper but pretty simple once you see it in action.

then you can offload from the ram to the 512 cinemag, which is a custom SSD. rated at 1.5 gb/sec. (you can also record directly to the mag too but you get limited on framerates)

so the cinemag IS fast enough to handle 28k, at a decent redcode at 24 fps. but the phantom cinemag is 50 thousand dollars...

we got some ways to go still

 

[Martin Whittier]

The cine mag is definetly an improvement over the old methods of working with the Phantoms. Were I work we use Phantom 7s mostly with out cine mags and sometimes will have to wait 20+ mins to download a single shot over ethernet depending on length. The mag really speeds up the connection utilizing eSATA conntacts. My only real complaint about the cine mag is that you can't just drag and drop to back up the files at the end of the day, you have to either have it mounted to a camera or docking station then clip by clip move the files in a save as fashion. The last Phantom HD shoot I worked on we we didn't have a docking station so it wasn't an option to hand off the drive to an assistant to back up because the camera was in use shooting. This became a real pain at the end of the day backing up 200GB of clips.

 

[Tom.Wong]

The cine mag is definetly an improvement over the old methods of working with the Phantoms. Were I work we use Phantom 7s mostly with out cine mags and sometimes will have to wait 20+ mins to download a single shot over ethernet depending on length. The mag really speeds up the connection utilizing eSATA conntacts. My only real complaint about the cine mag is that you can't just drag and drop to back up the files at the end of the day, you have to either have it mounted to a camera or docking station then clip by clip move the files in a save as fashion. The last Phantom HD shoot I worked on we we didn't have a docking station so it wasn't an option to hand off the drive to an assistant to back up because the camera was in use shooting. This became a real pain at the end of the day backing up 200GB of clips.

that's because the cinemag has no partition system on it. it's not HFS, it's not NTFS. it's literally nothing, and it needs the vision tech software to interpet it on to a computer (pc at that) at least the dock you can get, can give you 10 g speeds. but they did this to avoid any type of fragmentation possible to avoid even a single corrupt frame or the the mag dropping dead. the thing is pretty bullet proof, but there's always pros and cons to that.

 

[Randall Weatherington]

Until faster media arrives, think what Jeff says, 2 or more drives in a raid configuration will probably be at the launch.
Of course, this opens up another whole can of worms as far as data wrangling. Now let's see. Where did I put that other drive...

 

[Tom.Wong]

a new "red ram" could theoretically exist, with pre raided RED SSD's in there. all in raid 0 solution to get it up to speed. but with that, i think a new media module will be in order, and it will be even more important with the rate those drives are filling to get a faster connection to offload. it's gonna be crazy, and fun

 

[Randall Weatherington]

Great suggestion, Tom!
We will need the media in a single package.

This will also allow longer coverage with the "smaller" Epic-X, Red One, etc., cameras

 

[Tom.Wong]

gonna need 20 g connection to get that data off there fast enough. not to mention the raids you'll need on set to transfer it to... needless to say, 28k epic isn't gonna be a everyday production kind of thing. it's gonna be a specialty camera just like the way phantom is.

unless you've got michael bay or christopher nolan type budgets...

 

[Shane Betts]

@Shane... If my quick-calculated numbers are anywhere close, you would need a lot more than an 8Gb connection. You will probably need two of them.

You cheated! You actually made a calculation. I just bent over and spoke like I usually do. :biggrin:

Perhaps Lightpeak optical? They're talking, what, 10Gb from copper? And I love the idea of a SSD RAID. How cool would that be!

Not sure if I'll ever afford one but I too want both the 645 and the 617. I just do.

 

[Tom.Wong]

Not sure if I'll ever afford one but I too want both the 645 and the 617. I just do.

how can you not? you can get a HD crop from some guy's pimple from a ultra wide angle shot at that resolution, and still have it pin sharp. why wouldn't anyone want that?!?!?!

seriously though if they can make these monster sensor camera housed in something the size in the very least the size of a r1, it's gonna change a lot of filmmaking.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Remember this guy?

 

[Tom.Wong]

Remember this guy?

can't wait for those guys...

 

[Mike P.]

Actually SSDs are already kind of like raid... the bigger the capcity of an SSD drive, the faster the read/write speeds they have because each group of mem chips (currently I think its every 32gb or maybe 64gb) can be accessed simultaneously or something like that... SO, in theory, you get speed improvements every 32/64gig worth of memory chips/groups in SSD drives.

Alas, having two or more drives in a physical raid array is a brute force way of getting 2x the performance, so if they could fit duallies on cam, it'd definitely have a boost (but it'd be way more complicated.)

 

[Russ Fill]

Just a pie in the sky thought, but maybe by the time we see this there could be a assignable area/areas to use on the sensor, cropping setup, so you would not have to use the total sensor or memory it creates to make an image when you use it. It might just work then for a smaller format 3D combo lens setup mentioned earlier. Imagine that... one file both views and only using what you need on the sensor by being able to crop what you want to use for your project. Super cool.