Jeff or Anyone ... Best Mac Pro Setup for Epic?

[AnthonyFlores]

Hi Guys,

If budget was not a problem and you wanted the ideal Mac Pro setup for Epic work (well ideal, but not insanely priced) ... how would you configure it? I was thinking ...

- Two 2.93GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon “Westmere” (12 cores)
- 32gb memory
- Raid card
- 4 x 2TB hard drive bays (do solid states really matter for editing/grading?)
- Which graphics card?

Total for the Mac Pro Tower = About $12,000

Now, in terms of other things that would be connected to the system ...

- Dual Red Rockets = $10,000
- Evo VR for Storage/Backup = $2,000
- 2 x Eizo ColorEdge CG303W Monitors = $10,000

Anything else? Obviously, I know there are better monitors, etc ... but this seems to be an incredible setup -- and for what you get -- the price of $36,000 is not that outrageous for such fast performance. Probably close to $40,000 when you include software like Da Vinci, Avid or FCP, etc.

Any thoughts -- especially by others who are considering building a new post system for the Epic -- would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Anthony

 

[Eric Santiago]

- Two 2.93GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon “Westmere” (12 cores)
- 32gb memory
- Raid card
- 4 x 2TB hard drive bays (do solid states really matter for editing/grading?)
- Which graphics card?

- Dual Red Rockets = $10,000
- Evo VR for Storage/Backup = $2,000
- 2 x Eizo ColorEdge CG303W Monitors = $10,000

Im curious to see what others will add to this I have same CPU/Mem. No RAID yet but have a Quadro 4000 (posted many comments on this card and now have it running smoothly).
However with your thoughts on RAID then adding dual ROCKETS (we have one but ordered a BT for MobileRocket), do you have the space left?
I cant get our ROCKET to work on any off the 3 or 4 slot.

 

[Dominick Pietrzak]

I would also be interested in seeing what others have to say about the perfect Mac Pro setup!

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

A lot still depends on how you want to work with Epic. There are a number of common RED workflow approaches these days, requiring different hardware and software solutions.

If money were not an object, but also taking into account various performance factors, here's what I would start with:

- 2 x 2.93GHz 6-core "Westmere" CPUs
- 24GB (6x4GB)
- nVidia Quadro 4000 (slot-1)
- ??? (slot-2)
- ??? (slot-3)
- ??? (slot-4)
- 4 x 2TB WD Black-X RE4 HDDs
- 2 x DELL U3011 monitors (Possibly the Eizo CG303W)
- LG, Pioneer, etc.. Blu-Ray writer in Optical Bay #1
- System apps drive in Optical Bay, possibly SSD or 2xSSD

From there, it's really a matter of what you need for your software and workflow(s). The new Dell 30" displays are very nice. They're using the same panel and backlight system that the Eizo CG303W is. The Eizo has more refined controls and better internal processing that better controls the gamma curve. It also includes a colorimeter and software (I think, it might be an extra). The Dell is less than half the price, has more inputs and bells and whistles. IMO, neither are ideal for final color grading, so may as well save the money and put the extra toward a nice plasma or even a projector. The new 2K Barco is freaking awesome, and of course you have to pay for that awesomeness.

A RED Rocket is probably desirable. That will populate slot-2. However, the Rocket is not always necessary on these more powerful systems, depending on your chosen workflow. I don't recommend dual Rockets unless you opt for a PCIe Expansion -- more on that below.

Video capture/monitoring card. This would populate Slot-3. Two great choices right now and they're right around $900. The AJA Kona 3G or the BlackMagic HD Extreme 3D+. The BlackMagic card is required for DaVinci Resolve at this time. Both work great with Adobe CS5 and FCS.

RAID card. Slot-4... This could be a huge discussion in itself. But for a single workstation, I recommend the ATTO R680. As it can host both an LTO-4 or LTO-5 tape system as well as a SAS/SATA RAID and/or eSATA devices. Another option is to go with a non-RAID host like the ATTO H6F0, which has twice as many external ports. You can connect RAID systems that have their own onboard RAID hosts. Other options open up if you opt for PCIe Expansion.

A second video card. If you run DaVinci Resolve, you will need both a card for your GUI and a dedicated GPU for processing. There are only two PCIe power connectors in the current Mac Pro towers and you don't want to split or over-draw from this output. You can steal power from an optical bay or drive bay, but chances are, this system is going to be FULL. So, the ideal second card here is another Quadro 4000. This allows you to have two of the same card, so no issues with differing capabilities between primary/secondary GPU, full capabilities in all apps. The Quadro 4000 occupies one slot space and takes one of the two PCIe power leads. In a Resolve system, slot-4 is a good location for the GPU if you also have the Rocket and a Decklink card. Otherwise put the second GPU in slot-2.

PCIe Expansion... Cubix makes a couple good options. There's also Cyclone and JMR. The Cyclone 2707 is my go-to choice at the moment. It's a full 80Gbps PCIe 2.0 X16 interface -- put this in Slot-2. In there you can add 3 X16 cards and two X8 cards. Two of the X16 slots are double-width. This is a great option for DaVinci Resolve systems. Put another GPU or two and two Rockets in the expansion box. You can throw in an eSATA or USB3 card too. You can also put a RAID card in the Cyclone and even move the Cyclone system board into a better chassis to host hard drives and LTO as well as the PCIe cards.

Just be aware that anything you put in that expander will still have to push and pull any data through that single X16 2.0 pipeline. This can be a problem if you're installing cards that all must be used at the same time. 2 Quadro cards and 2 Rockets could very well choke in Resolve if all are in the same expander, I haven't tried that.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Before I buy a workstation I think twice what I want to accomplish with it. Different software needs different hardware. Just two little examples:

FCP for instance does not take advantage of all 12 cores of the box, Autodesk Smoke does. FCP does not really care how big your monitor system is, again Smoke does - a 30" display is useless here, you need a 24" 1920 x 1200 display. And you need a big Wacom board.

A RedRocket is always meaningful, especially if you have fast turnaround times.

8TB of fast storage is nothing for Red shot projects. I have two 12 TB fast raids and when the next bigger project comes I get another 12 TB Raid. If your don't edit projects with your system the 8TB you planned are sufficient.

You want a decent backup system. LTO-5 makes the most sense. the LTO-5 media is still on the expensive side but the LTO-4 tapes with their capacity of 800 GB will do it for now.

You don't need an SDI card when you don't have an SDI monitoring system. One of the Panasonic plasmas would give you a great viewing experience and makes your system usable for grading purposes. Alternatively a good 1920 projection does the job too (not for grading in Rec709).

A 30" LCD monitor does not make much sense in a postproduction environment. We had the Apple 30" LCDs when they came out years ago. I gladly changed them to 24" Eizo pro series. You can also use use the 24" Dreamcolour. 30" is too large. You head is panning around, the interfaces become hard to read. May be flashy but is not ergonomic, IMHO.

The latest and biggest processors are always too expensive compared to the extra power they deliver. It makes sense to buy the second powerful configuration, saves you roughy 2K.

Rarely more than 16 GB of Ram are addressed by one single application, even in 64bit. Unless you are working with 3 or more applications simultaneously you don't need more than that.

Personally I find it more important to invest into good and meaningful software than into flashy, new hardware. Sometime, of course, one has to buy new hardware. But then it makes sense to check what of the old stuff is still doing the trick.

Hans

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I want to add some further clarification. Also I agree with most of the points Hans brings up. The CPU consideration is a big one. It does save quite a bit of money to step down one level. And in the real world with real budgets, this is an attractive option.

I disagree somewhat on the 30" displays. Once again, it comes down to your intended use and also the ergonomics of your workspace as well as your own eyes' abilities. I prefer dual 30" displays. I don't have the head-panning issue other than to change from viewing one monitor to the other. But I also sit further back from the 30" displays, I have rather good eyes. If you find that you need to sit close enough to a 30" display where you don't have the entire screen plus a good bit of its surrounds within your field of view, then it's probably not the monitor for you. I would take a 24" display in a heartbeat if I could get it with the 2.5K resolution of the 27/30" displays. But 1920x1200 doesn't cut it for 90% of what I do. I need to see full 1920/2K plus all my menus, tools, etc.. I also spend a lot of time writing code and the only thing better than dual 30" displays for serious programming endeavors would be three of them.

I recommended 24GB of RAM because of the triple-channel possibilities. 16GB RAM is typically all you need and populating all 8 sockets in a Mac Pro with 2GB DIMMs works great. Triple-channel is supported, but it's a catch-22 solution. All the 4GB DIMMs on the market that I'm aware of, have much slower timings than 2GB DIMMs. So if you want to go beyond 16GB, then 24GB is the sweet spot. You gain your extra capacity and also gain triple-channel for a bit of a boost by only using 6 of the sockets. This compensates for the slower timings and can still give higher performance on large contiguous memory moves. 6x2GB for 12GB RAM will have the possibility of the best performance. However, 12GB is just a bit shy of where you should be. I can run past 8GB pretty easy in a Mac Pro and 12 is right at the limit. 16GB makes everything rather comfortable most of the time.

I also agree with Hans about buying software over hardware. I would much rather have all the tools I need for my workflows rather than the latest and greatest system with no software on it. I also try to not over-buy in the hardware department. I'm always on the lookout for deals and I also shop with the knowledge that it's worth 70% of what I paid for it the second I open the box and install it. And it's worth half of that in another 6 months, half of that 6 months later... etc.. If I'm not 100% sure that I can buy a new system or piece of hardware and ROI it in full within 1 year, I don't buy it.

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

24" vs 30"

24" vs 30"

Really have to agree with Jeff or disagree with Hans on the 30" comments.

Hans, your statement that Smoke is useless with a 30" is just not right. As Jeff says, being able to have a 1920x1080 canvas at 100% in Action, with spare room on the sides, is just wonderful. The only part of the GUI that looks a bit weird on the 30" is the player IMHO.

And a A3 Wacom and a 30" just "fits"...

Cheers,
Fredrik

 

[AnthonyFlores]

WOW GUYS! Thanks so much. I don't understand everything fully (not the most tech-savvy person) however, this will allow me to research better and speed up my learning curve.

I'm going to bookmark this post, as I will be getting a new system in the next 3-6 months (probably a little before I get my Epic) ... and so this helps a TON. Much appreciated!

Also, curious -- what do you guys think of this product? (below) I was thinking of it as a more robust storage option (in addition to the limited 8TB on the Mac Pro itself) and know Maxx is very well liked here on the forum ...

http://www.maxxdigital.com/evo-4k-expando.html

For my uses (at least in the beginning) ... I will primarily be taking the Epic R3D's, transcoding to ProRes or DNxHD ... and then mostly editing and doing simple title graphics myself. I may do a little grading but as writer/director/DP (the DP learning curve is vast!) -- there's really only so many skills I can have before spreading myself too thin. So I don't anticipate ever doing a TON of grading myself ...

However, part of my motivation for building this "ultimate" system would be to have a workstation where I can bring in a DIT and have them work with Da Vinci (or Storm or whatever) on my system/location. Just so that it's a more collaborative process and I get to learn faster .... so I really want to build an attractive, up-to-date system that performs well with the Epic workflow. Eventually, I may even hire my own full-time, in house editors, colorists, DIT's ... probably similar to a smaller version of what Mark does, but in a totally different market for different types of projects (scary to think of competing with someone like him, don't want to do that )

One last thing guys -- how would any of your suggestions change if I said I wanted to be able to effectively handle 3D?

Thanks so much

Anthony

 

[David Lagos]

Excellent information. Excellent thread.

@Anthony. Was thinking of investing in a Mac Pro system to apply it to my production services in the same way you are thinking of applying it to yours. Have the tools, then hire the talent (editors, color gradors, DIT) to use them.

@Jeff. Dude, you are always rocking the forum with your tech knowledge and many people who aren't as versed in hardware and software configurations are very grateful for it. Me included, thanks for your input.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Excellent information. Excellent thread.

@Anthony. Was thinking of investing in a Mac Pro system to apply it to my production services in the same way you are thinking of applying it to yours. Have the tools, then hire the talent (editors, color gradors, DIT) to use them.

@Jeff. Dude, you are always rocking the forum with your tech knowledge and many people who aren't as versed in hardware and software configurations are very grateful for it. Me included, thanks for your input.

Yah David, my goal is to build a small studio that can handle all aspects of production and (as business grows) attract talent so that more projects can be taken on, done at a higher level, and completed faster.

And COMPLETELY agree with you about Jeff -- one of the most technically savvy people I've ever come across (amazingly generous with help too) and I've learned a ton from him. Jeff, if you see this, I really appreciate all that you offer for free -- but do you ever do consulting (phone or in person) on this stuff? Just curious as I really value your knowledge and know someone like you can save me lots of time/money. Let me know as I would like to potentially consult with you later this spring or summer once I'm closer to establishing everything ....

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Really have to agree with Jeff or disagree with Hans on the 30" comments.

Hans, your statement that Smoke is useless with a 30" is just not right. As Jeff says, being able to have a 1920x1080 canvas at 100% in Action, with spare room on the sides, is just wonderful. The only part of the GUI that looks a bit weird on the 30" is the player IMHO.

And a A3 Wacom and a 30" just "fits"...

Cheers,
Fredrik

Thanks for your experience regarding Smoke and 30" display. I assumed that according to Autodesk's specs Smoke's interface will look weird on a 30" display. My bad.

Jeff, unfortunately my eyes changed not to the better in the last years (not that I'm blind though). I find a 24" display more convenient to look at. One of the advantages of Smoke's old UNIX interface is it's good readability, due to the big characters...

Hans

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Also, curious -- what do you guys think of this product? (below) I was thinking of it as a more robust storage option (in addition to the limited 8TB on the Mac Pro itself) and know Maxx is very well liked here on the forum ...

http://www.maxxdigital.com/evo-4k-expando.html

(...)

One last thing guys -- how would any of your suggestions change if I said I wanted to be able to effectively handle 3D?

Thanks so much

Anthony

The EVO is a high performance solution compared to 4x2TB internal, atleast on paper. I don´t know the product first hand. Anyways, you don´t need both. But the PCI-e controller for the EVO will occupy a 16x slot.

3D and how it displays is also dependent on your software. Resolve needs a DeckLink HD Extreme 3D. Smoke needs the AJA Kona 3G. Some apps can use both. But then you need a 3D capable display. Active glasses is very tough on the eyes for prolonged viewing and especially under uncontrolled lighting conditions. You have to make some choices, as in what do you need it for, clients or not, PJ or LCD, etc etc.

Still, always happy to help.

Cheers,
Fred

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Thanks for the appreciation and love, guys. The only reason I know what I do is because others have shared with me over the years or have given me the opportunity to learn from experience. Just trying to pay it forward.

Jeff, unfortunately my eyes changed not to the better in the last years (not that I'm blind though). I find a 24" display more convenient to look at. One of the advantages of Smoke's old UNIX interface is it's good readability, due to the big characters...

I totally understand on the eyes changing bit. My eyesight is not as good as it once was either. I don't know much about Smoke, having never used it other than poking at the Mac version last year at NAB for a few minutes. I have a soft spot for old style interfaces and apps with history on Unix systems, especially apps that were forged on SGI systems when in their prime. Always loved Alias|Wavefront, before the Maya revolution and SoftImage|3D. Unfortunately, SI3D took a downhill turn after Microsoft decided they no longer wanted it... XSI just never had the magic of the original SI3D.

Anyway, that went off on a tangent... Got a bit nostalgic for a moment. I miss tinkering with my old SGI systems. And the looks on the faces of SGI support techs who would visit and see all my non-supported/authorized hardware and other mods. hehehe... These days, the closest we can get is building a Hackintosh, and frankly, that's quite a pedestrian achievement and lacking excitement.

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Yah David, my goal is to build a small studio that can handle all aspects of production and (as business grows) attract talent so that more projects can be taken on, done at a higher level, and completed faster.

If you are seriously aiming for a light studio/boutique setup, you need AT LEAST two machines. Even at your first gig. The client wants ProRes files, h264 and what-have-you - and they want it two hours ago. And you are asked to do a rough edit and they want to come in at noon to do some color. If you tell them that THE COMPUTER is not available due to rendering, the chances they will come back is slim.

My 2 cents after 15 years in post. To paraphrase "Mad Men": The only problem with this business is the client.

But try to hold on to your enthusiasm, it will be your only friend when everything breaks down on you, the night before a deadline...

Cheers,
Fred

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

I have a soft spot for old style interfaces and apps with history on Unix systems, especially apps that were forged on SGI systems when in their prime. Always loved Alias|Wavefront, before the Maya revolution and SoftImage|3D. Unfortunately, SI3D took a downhill turn after Microsoft decided they no longer wanted it... XSI just never had the magic of the original SI3D.

Anyway, that went off on a tangent... Got a bit nostalgic for a moment. I miss tinkering with my old SGI systems.

Let me join your club. I grew up with Jaleo on O2, Fire on Onyx and Smoke on Octane. Those were the days... :thumbsup:

 

[Eric Santiago]

If you are seriously aiming for a light studio/boutique setup, you need AT LEAST two machines...

This has been my workflow for years even at a corporate level.
Currently Im trying to render in AE in one box, burn a BD in another. Im old school thanks to the years in 3D where one cpu cant do it for almost any level of real work.
It does look like Ill be splitting up the REDCineX/ROCKET box from the future Davinci.

 

[David Lagos]

If you are seriously aiming for a light studio/boutique setup, you need AT LEAST two machines. Even at your first gig. The client wants ProRes files, h264 and what-have-you - and they want it two hours ago. And you are asked to do a rough edit and they want to come in at noon to do some color. If you tell them that THE COMPUTER is not available due to rendering, the chances they will come back is slim.

My 2 cents after 15 years in post. To paraphrase "Mad Men": The only problem with this business is the client.

But try to hold on to your enthusiasm, it will be your only friend when everything breaks down on you, the night before a deadline...

Cheers,
Fred

"Welcome to Reduser. Years of experience and technological knowledge just a click away. You will feel like you've known your Red One, Epic, or Scarlet your entire life after checking with us.
Thank you, come again!"

Seriously though, I know people (please remember I am in Honduras = stone age in terms of video production of any kind and relevant knowledge) who would pay out the wahzoo to get the information I get on this site for free (given I have the time and patience to read hundreds of posts).:thumbup:

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Cash or cheque, no problem

I have always been happy with sharing technical knowledge. I don´t see it as giving away info for free. It´s usually a part of a discussion where we learn from each other. Locally, I also help out "competitors" in tech issues if I can. What goes around, comes around.

But I will never reveal "secrets" or technical innovations on a public forum or to competitors in our market. We have solutions in our rental dept and in post that we only offer to clients, stuff that we know how to do and that keeps us on top.

All the best,
Fred