Dual System Sound - What's your workflow?

[Kalani Prince]

Been trolling the interwebs for a while trying to figure out how everyone is dealing with dual system sound in Premiere..

At the moment I don't have a problem syncing audio to video then doing jerry-rigged edit's in the timeline as my projects have all been short little 5min or less pieces of media.

The first project I plan on shooting with Scarlet will be much larger so I want to at least conceptually work out these problems sooner than later..

How do you sync audio with 100's or 1000's of clips/takes so they can be worked with in the viewer by simply marking in/out points?

Back in the day when I was using FCP, you could select two unrelated clips and chose to "make master clip".. You'd then have a clip in your bin that acted as if it were recorded in camera and as a single entity for in/out points..

It doesn't seem that Premiere CS4 has this functionality, and even if it did, the pro's must be doing something much smarter that I am completely overlooking to get all their external audio sync'd with the appropriate clips..

Any insight into the proper workflow of professional editors would be greatly appreciated!

Much love.

PS: I'm aware of LINKING and NESTING unrelated clips but this does not solve the problem of being able to work from the clips in the bin area..

 

[Uli Plank]

Have a look at PluralEyes.

 

[Kalani Prince]

Have a look at PluralEyes.

pluraleyes brings me back to the same situation which is a sync'd clip in the timeline but it ends there.

I want to be able to have all audio/video linked and ready for in/out editing in the project bin area..

 

[Bob Gruen]

On the time line in Premiere you can both unlink and link video tracks from audio tracks in files. On a larger scale you can also group (and ungroup) numerous clips of video and sound. This information is in the form of pointers to in and out points of a file within the sequence. The pointers within the bin are only file level pointers along with setup information of that particular file (like Source Settings).

What you are asking for would require a database of file in-point mappings, stored either inside your Premiere sequence or presented to the Premiere executable as a service, or you could try to replace the audio tracks within the file...

There are both video and audio channels within the multimedia files that we use, and of course within that file everything is synced. There is no tool that I know of that will auto-magically replace an audio track within a multimedia file. Even if there were for more common files, R3Ds are relatively new and I for one would be afraid of doing any modifications to my masters, which mean I'd want to dupe everything first and would have the effect of doubling my disk requirements.

The best post solution is to record audio to the camera. I've done 2 features this way on the Red One and the results are more than acceptable. The one exception made was to mount a mic on the camera for steadicam work and manual sync in post. The best method is to get a Sound Devices (or similar) mixer and an ENG breakaway cable to tether it to the camera.

Bob

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

Clipmeister RD could do the job.:


but it's unbelievable Adobe doesn't come with a descent solution for handling field audio.

This is the biggest downside using ppro right now instead of Avid, they should fix this and come up with something where you can synch files automatically
this seems so -2000 BC

I've asked Red for a similar solution that you could sync the files in Redcine with external multitracks, but it requires some rendering I guess, so so far Clipmeister is the only solution, but couldn't try it yet.

 

[Dustin Cross]

Sync-N-Link is awesome, but it makes FCP XML and that doesn't help you. If you bring merged clips from an FCP XML into PPro, do they work?

Dual system sound it the only way things are done in the professional movie world. Recording to camera is only for reference track, if done at all.


Dusty

 

[Rob Ruffo]

On the time line in Premiere you can both unlink and link video tracks from audio tracks in files. On a larger scale you can also group (and ungroup) numerous clips of video and sound. This information is in the form of pointers to in and out points of a file within the sequence. The pointers within the bin are only file level pointers along with setup information of that particular file (like Source Settings).

What you are asking for would require a database of file in-point mappings, stored either inside your Premiere sequence or presented to the Premiere executable as a service, or you could try to replace the audio tracks within the file...

There are both video and audio channels within the multimedia files that we use, and of course within that file everything is synced. There is no tool that I know of that will auto-magically replace an audio track within a multimedia file. Even if there were for more common files, R3Ds are relatively new and I for one would be afraid of doing any modifications to my masters, which mean I'd want to dupe everything first and would have the effect of doubling my disk requirements.

The best post solution is to record audio to the camera. I've done 2 features this way on the Red One and the results are more than acceptable. The one exception made was to mount a mic on the camera for steadicam work and manual sync in post. The best method is to get a Sound Devices (or similar) mixer and an ENG breakaway cable to tether it to the camera.

Bob

Sorry but, much as the video in Red is beyond belief awesome - the best camera ever by miles and miles, the audio is substandard. It's really, really crap. In fact, it's worse than that. The DACs are mediocre at best, and you can't even monitor sound (at the source, which is not really the same as monitoring a mixer further up the chain) with headphones. It's easy to synch in post - just use a clapboard, or even just clap your hands.

What I have long wanted is the ability to make subclips from a timeline. I don't think this would be some amazing programming feat. As it is you can already use timlines (with re-synched sound and even effects and transitions) as though they were clips within other timelines - to be able to make subclips would increase the utility of this system far further.

I also find your condescending tone toward the OP unwarranted. David listens here, and it is only by users describing their needs that Adobe can make CS5 even better.

 

[Dustin Cross]

the audio is substandard. It's really, really crap. In fact, it's worse than that. The DACs are mediocre at best, and you can't even monitor sound with headphones, which makes it patently ludicrous in a professional context for anything other than a guide track.

I don't' think Red audio is that bad and I have no problem monitoring it with headphones. I am not going to tell the sound person to not bring the Deva or 788, but your statement sounds like FUD to me.


Dusty

 

[Uli Plank]

I'm afraid Rob is still referring to the ancient audio board, which was replaced by RED at their cost. Since then, sound has been quite good.
One of the most critical sound engineers in Germany (he was responsible for sound in "The Life of Others") mumbled after listening to the upgraded board something like "kind of OK" (well, the German version of that). If this is coming from that guy it's like "really great" from others. Usually he builds his own equipment, since he's not accepting any other quality…

But I agree that handling of sound in PPro needs to be improved.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

...Back in the day when I was using FCP, you could select two unrelated clips and chose to "make master clip".. You'd then have a clip in your bin that acted as if it were recorded in camera and as a single entity for in/out points...

The FCP way of doing it has the big, big disadvantage that the audio part is NOT referenced in the EDL, respectively XML. Conforming the audio somewhere else is not working. Only if FCP is used for finishing this way syncing footage makes sense.

It doesn't seem that Premiere CS4 has this functionality, and even if it did, the pro's must be doing something much smarter that I am completely overlooking to get all their external audio sync'd with the appropriate clips..

Yes you are right. CS4 has no ability in this regard. But it's successor PremierPro CS5 is now "pro" in many means and a good NLE.

The audio handling changed to the better with CS5 5.02. The 0.2 upgrade includes a very meaningful way to synch sound to video. First of all, you arrange your footage in your bin by TC. Normally audio runs before the camera, hence the audio file resides above the video file. We assume that the audio guy set his audio device to TOD (time of the day) TC and slaved the camera's TC. Otherwise we are in trouble.

Then you place the video into the timeline and underneath the corresponding audio file. Select both, select in the Clip menu Synchronize, select TC in the pop-up menu and the sound file will move to the right place and in perfect synch. Now you link both files (Clip menu and Link) and off you go.

The Adobe way has the advantage that the audio file is referenced in the EDL/XML, for us a big advantage. You can put the synched clip back into a bin that may be called "SceneXYZ_synched_selected".

Finally a short comment to the RedOne's ability to work with sound: of course is the RedOne's onboard sound technically to the specs one would expect. The downsides are: The soundcables are attache to the right side of the camera and are prone to break. The Mini XML cables doesn't make the system more reliable either. Working with a tethered camera is not fun. And last but not least does the tethering limit the soundman's work a lot.

We use the RedOne with a Sounddevice TC based since early 2008 and both never let us down.

Hans

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

The FCP way of doing it has the big, big disadvantage that the audio part is NOT referenced in the EDL, respectively XML. Conforming the audio somewhere else is not working.

Hans

hi hans, so how to do syncing in fcp if you want to lets say finish the audio in protools?
thanks

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

hi hans, so how to do syncing in fcp if you want to lets say finish the audio in protools?
thanks

Hi Cüneyt, I'm not familiar how FCP handles the OMF export. But I suspect that the implementation in the OMF has the same restrictions you encounter with the EDL format.

We synced via FCP's reference clip system, switched on waveform display in the timeline and added the original sound file matching the waveforms of the reference clip.

This is all moot, when you create via RedRocket/RedCineX/Storm your rushes and let it synch your footage. IMHO, the best way.

Hans

 

[Dustin Cross]

The FCP way of doing it has the big, big disadvantage that the audio part is NOT referenced in the EDL, respectively XML. Conforming the audio somewhere else is not working.

The audio is referenced in the XML. I create merged clips in Sync-N-Link daily and import those into FCP via XML. The video file and separate audio file are both referenced in the XML for the merged clip.

I haven't used EDLs from FCP in years, so maybe that is a limitation of FCP EDLs.


Dusty

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

thanks to both of u

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

The audio is referenced in the XML. I create merged clips in Sync-N-Link daily and import those into FCP via XML.

Dusty, you are using an external tool for roughly 500 USD for this task, which is fine of course. In FCP merged clips (done with FCP's own synch tools) do not work well with an XML conform to a third party. This is not an issue of Apple's FCP XML system but an issue that arises when you use FCP's internal tools for synching. Your Sync-N-Link XML works as expected because Sync-N-Link takes care that the translation to FCP works. But have you conformed a Sync-N-Linked timeline from FCP to a third party application? Is it correctly pictured in FCP's XML? This is what I was talking about. May be I did not make myself clear.

I conform daily to Smoke and have had these issues until I switched to Adobe Premier Pro CS5.02 which does a marvelous job in this regard. Unfortunately Adobe's XML won't load in Smoke so I have to roundtrip through FCP to give it the right "flavour".

Thanks for pointing to Sync-N-link.

Hans

 

[Dustin Cross]

Hans,

I just did a quick test. Sync-N-Link XML, FCP Merged Clip XML, and Sync-N-Link clip imported into FCP and exported back out XML. All three reference the original wav file.

All three XMLs are slightly different though. I would be interested to hear if you figure out what is causing your problem as I am looking into getting Smoke.

When you import an FCP XML into Smoke, the merged audio doesn't come over? I wonder if you used Sync-N-Link on your exported FCP sequence to sync audio to the edit if it would then carry over to Smoke correctly? Basically have Sync-N-Link replace the audio in the timeline.

Sync-N-Link has some great features and if it doesn't do what you need e-mail them and they will most likely add it within a day or two.


Dusty

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hans,

I just did a quick test. Sync-N-Link XML, FCP Merged Clip XML, and Sync-N-Link clip imported into FCP and exported back out XML. All three reference the original wav file.

All three XMLs are slightly different though. I would be interested to hear if you figure out what is causing your problem as I am looking into getting Smoke.

When you import an FCP XML into Smoke, the merged audio doesn't come over? I wonder if you used Sync-N-Link on your exported FCP sequence to sync audio to the edit if it would then carry over to Smoke correctly? Basically have Sync-N-Link replace the audio in the timeline.

Sync-N-Link has some great features and if it doesn't do what you need e-mail them and they will most likely add it within a day or two.


Dusty

Dusty, I'm not using Sync-N-Link. But merged clips in FCP don't make it over to Smoke. But a timeline that uses the original WAV files works well. Does Sync-N-Link create merged Clips in the XML? Or does it create a timeline where the original sound files are beneath the video files and in synch? If the latter is the case you won't have any trouble to export the FCP timeline successfully to Smoke, including the synched sound.

Hans

 

[Dustin Cross]

Sync-N-Link makes a bin in FCP with Merged clips in the bin. It also carries over all the metadata from the sound files. Maybe that metadata is what is missing. FCP ignores it when it makes merged clips.

Sync-N-Link can also sync audio with footage on a timeline, but I have never used that.

Sequenceliner makes an FCP timeline with audio below the video files in sync. I find that useless, because you still need to merge the clips, trim them to common video, and put them in a bin to be able to use them for anything.


Dusty

 

[Matt Johnston]

To somewhat replicate the FCP way of linking audio and video clips and then making them into a clip in the bin that you can set ins/outs you need to use nested sequences.

So just think of a sequence as a clip. Drag your audio and vid clips onto the sequence. Sync up your audio and link them.

Now you can use that sequence as a clip on another sequence. If you want to load it into the viewer to set in/out you need to Command+Double Click on the sequence in the bin.

At first this drove me nuts. Now it is the same as FCP's handling of it to me.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

this part of fcp sucks big time then....
we merged the clips in fcp on a project, i exported an omf and gave it to the sound dude (had serious problems to make the omf work though)
but the sound guy did conform to the original wave files, i dont know how, never asked, never knew fcp can make problems in that regard.
will ask to know how the sound guy relinked to the original wave files, because
its a 1000 edits plus timeline(split into reels) and i am sure he is not doing it manually