RED cameras could speed up editing in general?

[Darren Orange]

Hey Everyone!

I am sitting here editing our first feature film right now that we shot on "betacam" aka HDSLR and I want to take a moment to tell you about an idea that these cameras could never include but perhaps a RED camera could.

I am going though a scene by scene of our feature and finding that my actors did a good job being able to run though dialog sequences that are upwards of 5 minutes long. This allowed us to get things done very fast at our locations and many times covering with two cameras.

Anyway, I am now having to go into each take which is about 5 minutes long and cut up the break points where I want the edits to be.

What would be great is if you could have a devices just a button really, that would set a marker in the sequence where you would want to cut or at the end at each characters delivery. Obviously this is slightly dependent on the director/editor etc.

What would be cool is if you could from these markers render out some kind of EDL that you could load up and it would breakup your shots into edit points in your editing software of choice. This would save me the time of having to re watch and break things up into parts. This is extremely helpful with simple OTS etc, type of shots. I'm sure it would be more useful beyond that as well.

I know you guys are already planning on marking stills, maybe there is a way to translate that to this. This feature could save tons of time.

What do you think?

 

[Gabe Conroy]

I know you guys are already planning on marking stills, maybe there is a way to translate that to this. This feature could save tons of time.

What do you think?

If I recall correctly, the mark is just extra metadata in the motion file, so theoretically it seems like this is entirely up to software support as the data should be there.

 

[Craig Parkes]

Assuming you have audio hooked up, I know Avid ScriptSync can locate takes in footage based on the script, if you import the script, and then you can quickly scan for that dialogue. Prior to MC5 it was included with Media Composer, but now I believe it is a pay for update.

So there is a way you can do this now, automatically, based on delivery/script - if you have the right software.

 

[Uli Plank]

Adobe CS5 does this – even some more languages besides English.

 

[Darren Orange]

I am just looking at it as a creative tool while shooting.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Isn't it a good idea to review all the footage before making editing decisions? I mean, script notes can tell you which takes were preferred on the day, but I can't imagine hitting preferred edit points in the middle of takes while the actors are going, and then just looking at those pre-selected bits when you begin the editing process, unless this isn't a performance-driven piece. Edit points tend to be on subtle stuff like a shift of an eye or a breath or sigh, or when you feel the need to see the other actor's reaction at a certain beat, they are rarely about editing at the end of sentences.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I could do with simple clip marking on three levels...

Perfect for Redmote control. Green, red and blue dots visible in Redcine on marked clips would do just fine. No point in reviewing blue or red dotted ones if not necessary. Simple and practical.

 

[Charles Angus]

Isn't it a good idea to review all the footage before making editing decisions? I mean, script notes can tell you which takes were preferred on the day, but I can't imagine hitting preferred edit points in the middle of takes while the actors are going, and then just looking at those pre-selected bits when you begin the editing process, unless this isn't a performance-driven piece. Edit points tend to be on subtle stuff like a shift of an eye or a breath or sigh, or when you feel the need to see the other actor's reaction at a certain beat, they are rarely about editing at the end of sentences.

If I understand correctly, this is not the idea.

I know when I'm shooting digital, I'll often want to stop rolling - just for a split second - and start rolling again, to create a new clip on the card.

What I think the OP wants, and what I'd like to see, is a button to make a new clip (or at least a marker in the clip) without cutting - i.e. the two clips, when put together in an editor, would fit seamlessly.

Edit: OP is talking just about markers - I would like that, and a "new clip" button. Should have been more clear.

 

[Paul Steinberg]

I think XDCam does all of what you're looking for and more. XDcam has all kinds of nifty features for turning stuff around quickly for instance, it records full res and a low res proxy file simultaneously, you quickly download and edit that proxy right from the camera and then save that EDL back onto the same disc you were shooting on. When you drop that disc into a drive in your edit suite the EDL pops up and you're ready to output or continue working. I've got just enough grey hair to think that's pretty cool. I'm pretty sure you can flag individual takes as 'good' while you're shooting (after you end the clip).

You would loose the 35mm sensor but you could just mount Pro35 adapters to the cameras and you're back in business. On the flipside you would gain professional audio inputs, professional video/audio outputs for monitoring, less compression and eliminate most of the aliasing compared to DLSR shooting.

 

[Darren Orange]

I'm really just looking at adding markers much like what Charles is saying. It would be nice to be able to do this on location, more accurate than script notes or a general good or bad take.

Things can always change in the editing room, but this would save lots of time to have markers in some general places to start with.

I just know it would have saved me the time of having to watch everything and cut it up. I'm not saying it would need to be perfect or effect the art of editing a scene but just giving some markers to look at to break up longer takes.

 

[Marc Wielage]

What would be great is if you could have a devices just a button really, that would set a marker in the sequence where you would want to cut or at the end at each characters delivery. Obviously this is slightly dependent on the director/editor etc.

Both Avid and Final Cut Pro have markers built-in already. Here's a link on how to use them in FCP:

http://multimedia.journalism.berkeley.edu/tutorials/finalcut/markers/

David Mullen's comments are 100% right: this is an editing issue, not a shooting issue. Don't worry how long the camera material is. Worry about knowing every frame of the footage during the editing process.

 

[Uli Plank]

BTW, flags from Storm carry over as markers into FCP, even the comment stays intact.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I just think that for actor-driven material, cutting it in shorter amounts of time -- shorter schedules -- is not necessarily a good trend if it means you are not reviewing and evaluating all your footage as carefully.

We shoot more and more material every day on digital shows, yet editing schedules don't get any longer. I've had an editor deliver a final cut and complain to me afterwards about not getting some needed close-up or insert, only for me to tell them that I actually DID shoot that close-up or insert, they or their assistant just missed it because they were rushed and didn't review all the footage before they began cutting it.

So I'm all for whatever improves efficiency, but I'm not for methods that allow you to skip quickly through what was shot because that leads to not getting to know all your footage intimately. Walter Murch talks about this in "Blink of an Eye", about what he liked about KEM rolls was having to rewind or fast-forward through the whole roll just to find what he liked, because it constantly caused him to re-review his material and get to know it.

 

[Jason Wingrove]

Obviously th edit process shouldnt be rushed but as a director ive long been wanting something like this to indicate not just go takes but 'nice bits' so i dont have to do selects later or to make the selects process simpler or more thorough. If i could have a simple remote i can hit during a take to just flag to the editor (or remind myself later) what i liked at the time for whatever reason that would put a little 'director liked this bit' flag or marker on the clip or timeline.

Could be a simple flick of an eye or a look or a pause, something i might miss in the edit stage, but that in the intensity of the shoot and watching a take go down really meant something.

I know the DSMC software will allow photographers to flag 'still frames' in a motion stream but i think being able to do it remotely and simply would be great.

This would also free up photographers to either use an 'operator' or when on the tripod to remotely trigger the stills.

But it shouldnt be a complicated a "redmote min" for the director, script supervisor or stills shoter.so the assistant or AC can still have the redmote pro

Needs to be simple foolproof tech that doesnt get in the way of its intended creative use. tech can be a real buzz kill if it doesnt just work. i LOVE tech but if its slowing me down or holding up the flow creatively or physically it gets tossed across the set.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Obviously th edit process shouldnt be rushed but as a director ive long been wanting something like this to indicate not just go takes but 'nice bits' so i dont have to do selects later or to make the selects process simpler or more thorough. If i could have a simple remote i can hit during a take to just flag to the editor (or remind myself later) what i liked at the time for whatever reason that would put a little 'director liked this bit' flag or marker on the clip or timeline.

Could be a simple flick of an eye or a look or a pause, something i might miss in the edit stage, but that in the intensity of the shoot and watching a take go down really meant something.

I know the DSMC software will allow photographers to flag 'still frames' in a motion stream but i think being able to do it remotely and simply would be great.

This would also free up photographers to either use an 'operator' or when on the tripod to remotely trigger the stills.

But it shouldnt be a complicated a "redmote min" for the director, script supervisor or stills shoter.so the assistant or AC can still have the redmote pro

Needs to be simple foolproof tech that doesnt get in the way of its intended creative use. tech can be a real buzz kill if it doesnt just work. i LOVE tech but if its slowing me down or holding up the flow creatively or physically it gets tossed across the set.

But what are you flagging? In other words by the time a good line of dialogue, or a particular look is made, the action is done. So by the time you are able to react and trigger a marker, it's not flagging that precise moment. Or are you saying that you just want to be able to tag a clip with no specific marker on the exact spot in the clip that you liked? That may be a little more realistic to achieve. But i think many will agree, if you have worked with a really good script supervisor they are worth their weight in gold.

 

[Jason Wingrove]

I think most editors would recognize a marker from an editor if its just after the moment. im not suggesting flagging a hole take though could could be fine too, its for whatever your editor and you have pre determined before, plus if your editor knows you he will know what you were looking at.

Also not every shoot, be it indy short, feature or TVC has a script editor.

This is not intended to be a robotic replacement for the process of going through your footage be it by the editor alone or with the director, merely a enhancement to that process, a reminder or trigger for further investigation or conversation and perhaps a reminder for the director to think about what he say then and why.

Of course it still can be a simple print take marker for the script supervisor to use too. regardless of how you use it i think a Redmote Mini is a great idea

 

[David Mullen ASC]

A flagging system would be fine if it could allow notes to be added by the script supervisor in the metadata for the editing assistant and for the logs, but just a mark by itself at a sudden moment could get confusing for an editor who might not know if it was marked because you hated or liked the moment, which is why a script supervisor's note would be useful ("hate", "like", "missed line", "wrong prop", etc.)

I would hate if the filmmaking process became like a video game or an episode of "Jeopardy!" with the director hitting a buzzer every time he liked or hated something... first impulses are not always the best ones, the editing process allows a more contemplative, objective view of the material, removed from the rush and intensity of the shooting. I'd hate to see editing rushed to the same level as shooting. Editing is time to re-examine, to question, the choices made on the shooting day, not just reconfirm them quickly.

 

[ericyoung]

It would be very useful for documentaries and nature filming.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

To answer my own question, maybe one cool feature would be to add an offset value. A user-definable amount of time you could have the marker set back in time. For example maybe 10 seconds. So if I liked a line of dialogue or a look by the time I react and hit the button it can put the marker back closer to the actual spot. Kind of like pre-record feature.

I get what you're saying Jason. I can see it having many uses.

 

[Oliver Peters]

Shouldn't the director on set be worried about getting the best performances out of the actors? The LAST thing you want to do is cut the film in your head on set. Plan ahead and choreograph the scene, yes. But don't worry about where to break up takes as they occur. This leads to very poor choices, because you think you have all the coverage you need. In the end, you find things very limited when you get into editing.

As an editor, the first thing I do is review all the footage. At this stage of the process, I tend to ignore the script notes and the director's "circle takes" because I want to get my own first impression. If my choices are very different from the takes liked by the director on set, then the next thing to do is figure out what's different and why.

I frequently cut for reactions and responses. It doesn't sound like this "on-set marker" process would really take that into account.

- Oliver