Red Ray instead of Blu-Ray?

[Wayne Morellini]

You were talking about those rattes. RedRay was originally announced like "4k delivery of films on a standard DVD"

AFAIK the first bublic screenings was at 10MbS

To get the same quality per pixel as top end Bluray, do you need 15 or 36mb/s at 4K. Then when you go to 3D, high frame rate, 8K, increased pixel depth (and even 21-27 channel sound), even 100mb/s download might not be enough, but new 100GB Bluray disk standard will be. You also have to pay for that download.

I was talking about 15 to 36 mb/s, that is how the conversation was going, not the older 10 mb/s (upped to 15 mb/s now). It was also going onto how would we handle all the extra data rate of the extras in the future compared to disks. So, talk about 5 mb/s pipes is not really in it. We are getting 100mb/s pipes here, but how much is it going to cost to downland even a 15mb/s movie, verses $1 a movie rental. People are content with seeing 2mb/s rubbish, that is how download can win short term, they believe they have quality and have the HD label on it. Anyway, enough of this, life is going on and it is time to get on with it instead of writing here, for now.

 

[Stuart English]

Data Rate

Data Rate

Well no, the conversation wasn't going to 35 - 100Mbps Wayne, it had hopefully stopped at 4K delivery somewhere around an average of 15 Mbps. And I am describing tests observing 4K DPX material encoded to RED RAY on a 35 ft screen illuminated by a Sony SXRD projector. For a smaller screen size with equal visual quality, it's more probable we could drop the data rate lower rather than need to increase it.

 

[Stuart English]

Image Quality

Image Quality

So in terms of latitude, floor, ceiling, signal to noise ratio, detail per pixel, it is better?

Of course the displayed resolution plays a big part in this, but even my un-trained eyes say "yes, clearly".

 

[Stuart English]

Ble-ray

Ble-ray

I mean Redray as a licensed codec on Bluray, as an option to eventual 100mb/s+ download? .

I don't see a technical reason why that could not be done, but it may not be relevant if solid state media costs keep falling at the current rate.

Again 100mbps is your number not ours...

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Well no, the conversation wasn't going to 35 - 100Mbps Wayne, it had hopefully stopped at 4K delivery somewhere around an average of 15 Mbps. And I am describing tests observing 4K DPX material encoded to RED RAY on a 35 ft screen illuminated by a Sony SXRD projector. For a smaller screen size with equal visual quality, it's more probable we could drop the data rate lower rather than need to increase it.

Well, as I was the one asking about 35 - 100 b/s concerns, answers to me about things I never really said is not that relevant.

I don't need to delve deeper into the test, wherever you used seating for a large prime cinema field of view (around 70-80 degree arc) for proper testing, wherever it was done split screen mirror, or alternating, to get away from the handful of seconds memory laps in comparison test, or at the same resolution to get away from the illusion of more detail making the codec appear better. The only real way to visually test codec performance is resolution to resolution, split screen, probably mirrored, looking for it, or alternating probably with a button to register when it looks better (scientifically pixel for pixel testing is better again, well out of the way of Myth Busters science). Then you can measure how much you have to adjust the data rate to match the two.

So, to get a real test in 4K you would have to start with equivalent 4K bluray codec data rate times 4. So, 4*36 (lets say 160mb/s H264 inter) and the proposed 60mb/s SHD standard.

There is another effect to look at in lossy compression, how appealing, and well chosen, is the rendering, which is very good for lossy compression. The choice can make for more accurate rendering or simply more appealing making people believe it is more accurate. There has been a significant upswing in quality since I wrote about this mid decade, afterwards the original Canon HD consumer camcorder (not the little one) and ambarella cameras came out with significant improvements in technology. What I outlined was a preferential list in how to shape objects and features, and in handling these during movement, and how to degrade the image. In truth some of this has been going on since tele-conferencing compression research in the 80's, where the processing costs would have been too significant compared to today. So while not accurate, what is retained is more accurate or appealing to the human eye.

Screen technology is moving to large cinematic feilds of view, where quality becomes much more apparent. Even I have been researching designs for $10 (cost) projectors capable of covering 2 meter high screens at UHD+ resolutions eventually, even surround (somebody else looks like they are going to beat me to the market with their surround though, likely regularly priced though). This means that many people should be able to achieve $100 (cost) projector designs.

Again Stuart, I will enjoy seeing, and evening celebrating, the evidence, people's opinions during observations test are flawable and influencable (Bush talk).

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I don't see a technical reason why that could not be done, but it may not be relevant if solid state media costs keep falling at the current rate.

Again 100mbps is your number not ours...

On the marketing and business side. Having Redray as a licensable codec for bluray is potentially a large revenue stream for Red, as with download, and helps bluray handle 4K and 8K with quality. The problem is that bluray might want exclusivity to Redray, as download might also, but it is much more profitable having a codec that works on everything, and as far as I am aware they don't have other options.

Do you have figures for future 8K+, 3D, 10bit+ (high quality latitude for eye iris adjustment on future wall screens) 27 channel sound of 20-bit plus, half data rate to lossless at least), not including surround or true 3D. While many people might stare at their navels I am concerned about future design directions.

As an analyst designer inventor, I keep an eye on the technical side of things a little, even though mostly sick. The upcoming end of flash has been forecast by the industry for years. Flash has been heading towards it theoretical ceiling (though I do remember something about a further break through). Prices in store have largely stagnated in recent years as well (likely to much do with other factors too). I think it was 2012, but could be more now. Multi level flash is unreliable. So, flash as a cheap mass storage is potentially limited. To overcome this they have been researching replacements for flash for years, and I have not kept up with what is coming out. As a non solid state devices, hard and optical disks will keep ahead. But for distribution we are possibly looking towards a viable cheap solid state alternative instead of disk sooner, depending on how compressed it is. Most of the design directions I have, even Red could afford to do.

 

[Wouter V Gestel]

I used to buy movies on VHS because it was the only way to see a movie at home. After that, I bought DVD's because at the time it was the best quality to see movies at home. Now I buy Blu-Ray's because at this moment it is the best quality to see movies at home. When Red Ray titles will be released, I will buy Red Ray titles, because at that moment THAT will be the best quality to see movies at home.

Now according to some research presented by Amazon at Blu-Con, one of the biggest reasons why Blu-Ray hasn't been doing better than DVD has to do with the number of titles released on Blu-Ray. After 5 years DVD had 20.000 titles available, where Blu-ray hasn't even got 5.000 titles available.

Also remember that tiny format war we had a few years ago? In no way it was about what the consumer wanted, it was all about getting Movie Studio support. And two of the things Movie Studio's want to fight piracy are DRM and DHCP. Nobody likes it, it won't prevent piracy, but the Movie studio's still demand it, otherwise Movie studio's probably won't release their content. No content no sales.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm a big audio- and videophile so I would love to see stereo 4K+ and hear 22.2 192KHz/24bit uncompressed audio in my home theatre some day. But I think that we have a long way to go for that to happen. And getting the movie studio's support is a big bump in that road.

Also I don't know if this is true, but I even think that complying to the studio's crazy DRM wishes is one of the reasons why RED RAY hasn't been released yet.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

If Redray was a codec on bluray they could use it's encoding. I think they would be looking to upgrade their encoding to make it better. They also have to increase the layers in bluray (though using a method like constellation disk proposed, would possibly be cheaper) or going to violet ray. Red ray could extend BD life by 5 years. With GP-GPU processing, it might be possible to deliver Redray by the SHD version of Bluray, or the next after that, with whatever security upgrade they are planning.

With future shortages and high pricing of some materials, maybe they would welcome this. Frankly, having single layer extreme violet disk, is probably preferable (we could store archive on a multiple layer version).

Without red-ray, they will probably just try to upgrade the layers on bluray or go to V-ray for SHD/UHD, with 100-400mb/s h264 and I will happily buy .

Wouter, thanks. I suppose they didn't mention releasing lots of old films instead, somebodies insistence on sticking to their licensed low quality mpeg2, low bit rates, some people insisting on mpeg2 destroying grain, rather than clean it up to a superior image, or the purely sale killing high pricing, not to mention such outrageous player pricing that industry people don't like to see the outrageously priced PS3 reduced in price (don't get me on about the real price of the PS3). Wow, I bought Total Recall the other week for $10 after they discounted it from about $30 from memory. Despite lower security, DVD is still ahead on releases. People might mock me when I say it, but trying to maximize profit can definitely have the opposite affect on returns.

One area that can really benefit from Redray downloads, is titles from small independent productions on popular systems (PC, PS2, xbox, but future networked BD is a big one). Viva-la-revolution.


I'll say this instead of putting it in my sig for now:

The cutting edge, is to get people to think... about direction to go.​

 

[Stuart English]

Data Rates

Data Rates

If Redray was a codec on bluray they could use it's encoding. I think they would be looking to upgrade their encoding to make it better.

Without red-ray, they will probably just try to upgrade the layers on bluray or go to V-ray for SHD/UHD, with 100-400mb/s h264 and I will happily buy .

That is an interesting point.

If SHD means 3840 x 2160 pixels, we are already doing more than that resolution at less than 1/5 the data rate.

And projecting the results onto a 35ft screen, so we can see there are no artifacts.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

That is an interesting point.

If SHD means 3840 x 2160 pixels, we are already doing more than that resolution at less than 1/5 the data rate.

And projecting the results onto a 35ft screen, so we can see there are no artifacts.

But is it as robust as 160mb/s h264 under severe pressure or have the latitude of neighboring pixel levels and detail? I think that Redray is a great opportunity for the Bluray people, regardless if it has the data rate to beat 40mb/s or 160mb/s h264 it is better than anything they have got, or possibly any plan of the future (past object orientated techniques). I am not familiar with that branch of codecs, but somebody did tell me that various advanced features in h264 could used with alternative compression methods, is this true?

Thanks Stuart.

 

[Chuck Z]

What is the offline encoding speed for the RED RAY codec?

 

[Noah Kadner]

I'm a firm believer that Blu-ray will be the last major physical media format ever used for distribution of video content. From here on out it's 100% downloads and files living on hard drives... Have you bought music on a CD lately? I would love to see Red Ray as more of a box with a hard drive than something with a disc inside.

Noah

 

[Jun-Dai]

I accept Blu-ray has an installed base and is not likely to go away, but I for one would not purchase a system having seen RED RAY images. Just no way.

Image quality is one thing, but what choice do you have until companies start putting their films out in a 4K format? Criterion's got something like 100 phenomenal films out on Blu-ray that I just don't see having access to in 4K anytime soon.

 

[JD Holloway]

Having access in 4k isn't the only advantage though.
Nice in the long run for home viewing; cinematic release for sure.

Just getting a decent 1080/2k image into the home or business is a huge leap.
REDRAYs (non pro) first goals should include getting IP deliverables into houses at 1080.
This must be part of the RED RAY non-Pro business plan.

It will also be the biggest money maker RED has in its arsenal.

Clearly other players must be involved though.
People who own and distribute content.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

I won't be at NAB but I will be paying close attention...we still need as JD says a 1080 solution that is at the highest quality for distribution. Sony is dug into the broadcast distribution standard deeper than an Alabama tick, and not likely to change for a long time unfortunately.

I've read about the Sony SSD module that includes recording via the SRW 5800...but from what I gather you need to buy the 5800 and it becomes an add on (according to pics). So you're still stuck with 100K+ for investing in the broadcast standard deliverable.

If I had the ability to generate a master and have the ability to send a RedRay player with the SSD master to a post place (provided they don't already have one in house) allowing me to generate an SR master with 12 track audio as per my contractual deliverables with Closed Captioning, then we would be talking sweet music.

Here's hoping.

In the meantime I hope Avid either allows 4K in Symphony Nitris or incorporates aspects of DS such as going beyond 1080.

 

[Stuart English]

I won't be at NAB but I will be paying close attention...we still need as JD says a 1080 solution that is at the highest quality for distribution. Sony is dug into the broadcast distribution standard deeper than an Alabama tick, and not likely to change for a long time unfortunately.

I've read about the Sony SSD module that includes recording via the SRW 5800...but from what I gather you need to buy the 5800 and it becomes an add on (according to pics). So you're still stuck with 100K+ for investing in the broadcast standard deliverable.

If I had the ability to generate a master and have the ability to send a RedRay player with the SSD master to a post place (provided they don't already have one in house) allowing me to generate an SR master with 12 track audio as per my contractual deliverables with Closed Captioning, then we would be talking sweet music.

I think another unfortunate side effect of the Tsunami in Japan is that your SR master deliverable just reverted to D-5 HD again or maybe changed to LTO-4. If reports are to be believed, there is no HDCAM SR tape to be had.

 

[Stuart English]

Having access in 4k isn't the only advantage though.
Nice in the long run for home viewing; cinematic release for sure.

Just getting a decent 1080/2k image into the home or business is a huge leap.
REDRAYs (non pro) first goals should include getting IP deliverables into houses at 1080.
This must be part of the RED RAY non-Pro business plan.

It will also be the biggest money maker RED has in its arsenal.

Clearly other players must be involved though.
People who own and distribute content.

Absolutely, that's a big win for RED RAY - but the method to achieve that is to deliver your 4K 10-bit RGB source into the home via RED RAY, with internal downscale in the player to 1080p. That's what we were able to show at NAB, and I have to tell you the EPIC source material generated some of the best 1080p images I have ever seen. Despite the fact that we were playing back data at just 20 Mb/s, people thought we were displaying uncompressed DPX files or high bit rate ProRES or DNxHD.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Stuart -I don't need to deliver my SR master for broadcast until the end of the year. And trust me I would prefer not to but contractually this is what CBC demands.

This is why I'm hugely interested in getting my hands on a RedRay Pro as soon as it's available so I can start working through the how for generating a master greater than 1080.

Am posting in Symphony Nitris for the time being, and will lock picture here or DS...will I be able to conform at a greater resolution by then? Who knows...

 

[Danko Dolch]

Hi Stuart,

Data rates about 15-25 Mb/s for 4K delivery are "unbelivable". If you wheren't RED I would say it sounds like my TV station telling me that 3,5Mb/s 1080i transmission will bring me the perfect HD experience ;-)

My background is content delivery for festivals - where I'm responsible for alternative content not delivered as DCP or HDCAM tape. (documentary & animation films)

Currently we accept 1080p AVC-1 video and 6 channel AAC audio as MP4 container or H.264 MOV for the ease of exporting it by the filmmakers from the NLE timeline. This material is transmitted via internet by FTP so bandwith counts.

A good quality video stream 4:2:0 with some nice looking film grain (not the denoised daily soap look we know from TV) will eat up about 35Mb/s + audio. That's best case - if you try to send a H.264 MOV with 6 channel audio you have to use uncompressed PCM because Quicktime is offering AAC only for stereo channels. Also quicktime is using up to 70Mb/s in best quality encoding setting.

DCP's have min 100Mb/s + highres PCM audio - thats too much for todays internet lines. (50GB per movie is the practical limit for FTP transfers - we would accept more but it's not useful to upload from a 1Mb/s upload line so people don't do it...)

From this perspective RED Ray sounds interesting - it could bring a high quality 4K file format with small bandwith footprint and also the needed player hardware for screening.

We will keep an eye on the dev. and maybe get a clever new distribution format for alternative content not delivered with 200 Mb/s + like a DCP ;-)
(currently we use Doremi Nugget Players to playout - not to mention that we need to reencode all films to 80Mb/s MPEG II that the Nugget can play...)

Danko

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Just throwing a question out here:

I'm still on an old widescreen CRT with a great image. An older DVD player, and a nice DVD collection.

I know at one point in time I will have to update to an HDTV.
I don't have a problem with that.

I'm not so sure of Blu-Ray though...
I don't know if it's smart to invest in a new optical format at this point. In Belgium, most people still are on DVD, so the format will probably completely break trough in a year or so. But is it wise to invest in an optical format, when the future may lie in solid state media?

I don't have a problem with investing in Blu-Ray (although I'm not a particular big fan of the format, not because of technical reasons, but the way Sony handles its consumers with the format) if the next future format is 10 years away. But if we're talking about a good breaktrough in RED RAY or another format in 3 years or so, it seems stupid to invest in a whole new format. (points to the HD-DVD people)

I know RED Ray isn't there yet, and RED completely isn't in the consumer-space. But if my current set would be broken, at one point in the future, I want to think about bying into highly properiatary media which is maybe dead in a couple of years again. (RED RAY works with Drives and normal DVD's, right?)
I know you can't spend forever waiting for the next big thing, but just not completely fond of Blu-Ray - although I realise that technically, it's one of the best consumer HD formats at this point.

Blu-Ray is great - great sound, great picture, BOTH far exceed DVD on an HDTV. You can buy a player for $100 now on sale, so it is not exactly an "investment". Try watching North bu Northwest on Blu-Ray - that alone is worth $100.