RED for still photo camera?

[Sam Eilertsen]

Remember that in terms of latitude the Epic beats the hell out of the 5D, especially with HDRx, and I think for some stills applications that would be very valuable. If you want to shoot stills in, say, the desert or the snow without lighting it would certainly be a good choice.

 

[Jarred Land]

Ridiculous. A little hand-held Xenon flash that runs on four AAs can put out as much light, during a single exposure, as a 50kW continuous Xenon light can during the same exposure. One is just a touch more practical to carry and use than the other.

someone's been sleeping under a rock for way too long

 

[paulherrin]

Hi Beom,

I guess it really depends on what type of work you do. No doubt that Epic will produce some nice looking images. And it's really great to be able to shot 5k at 120fps.
But now imagine that you are shooting thru a whole day (in video mode shooting the highest redcode possible since its for still), to output 20 pictures that will be treated within lightroom/cameraraw/photoshop, you have a tight deadline, maybe you are only with your laptop on some place that you don't have access to a better machine. Now imagine you going thru 4-5 hours of video, frame by frame to find what you are looking for. And maybe you ran out of disk space, so you will be deleting/backuping the videos to send the other ones (GB nowdays is really cheap but...). It can take up some time scrolling thru everything, and can be slow if you are seeing in the best quality possible (since it's for still you probably will), then comparing Frame 4456 with frame 4460 with 4498 with frame 4509 (etc....) to see what's the best... You will probably compensate by making a faster grade on your pictures.

Now for video I'll say no doubt about the Epic. You can't go wrong...

What will probably be the best thing to do is to rent a Epic when released. See if fits your needs, your workflow and if you like it for still buy only the Epic, if you think it's missing something, buy another thing with the Epic.

fabricio, you are most certainly not required to shoot 120fps all the time when shooting stills. you can in fact... shoot stills, like you are used to. you don't ever have to shoot a video if you don't need to. but you'll still have a better RAW format for processing, a better sensor, and a better dynamic range in your image. if you do decide to shoot video for stills, don't forget the ability to "tag" a frame, so that you can go straight to it in post (and scrub around it if you want for a better frame). good news is, you don't have to get an epic if you don't need it.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Regardless, I can out-time 120fps pretty reliably with single-shot. For example, if the goal is ball-on-bat shots at a baseball game, I'd bet I can get a higher hit rate using single shot that you can shooting 120fps. ...

I'll take this bet.

 

[Robin Balas]

Ivan, thanks - but what I meant was the shutter speed in stills mode. The RED is 1/24 to 1/2000th of a second maximum shutter speed. A Leica M9 goes up to 1/4000; I think the 7D and 5D go up to 1/8000. I'd also like to know if it can do long exposures as a still camera. I'm just wondering how Epic in stills mode compares to other common digital stills cameras in terms of selectable shutter speed. In terms of 5K at 120fps it's far ahead of any other still camera.

All the dSLR's with a slit shutter will at above the x-sync speed give you a rolling shutter effect. The Leica M9 have a x-sync at 1/180 sec and that is the exposure time from start to end at the high speeds, although the particular exposure at each pixel is 1/4000 sec.

When you hook all this up to a studio strobe system you are limited to the 1/180sec and from 1/50-1/1500sec flash duration depending on flash power setting and type of flash head. Hence I couldn't care too much if I only get 1/2000sec on a RED as I seldom get to use above 1/90-1/125 with a generic studio flash rig.

For specialist purposes you can get BronColor, Pro or others with dual flash bulbs and dedicated functions to freeze motion, but you will always be limited by the fact that the color temperature in a flash is a function of voltage and duration, there is no easy and inexpensive way to pour tons of light to freeze quick motion. To get a lot of energy out in a short time you need to up the voltage heavily and you then get a really cold blu flash instead of a normal color temp of 5600-6500K. I use a MF Mamiya system with only a x-sync of 1/90sec with a Bron Grafit flash rig where I can adjust flash speeds and colortemp and have yet to be stuck because I can't freeze motion with it. I am of the opinion that most issues are solved with lighting and not with tha cameras shutterspeeds, but I am biased from working with slow "old style" equipment.

Personally i believe that when the difference between the x-sync speed and the max shutter speed gets to great, you get artifacts and distortions from the "rolling shutter" like effect. Unless RED can come up with shorther than 1/250sec x-synx speed there is little use for 1/4000 or 1/8000 from a photography point of view. For stationary subjects you will see litle to no artifacting, but then you really don't need fast shutter or flash durations to freeze motion either, do you?

For filming there might be some reasons outside my knowledge to have these fast shutter speeds, but from a photographers normal needs I see limited use for that. But there might be some new ways of working or new areas which we could deploy the EPIC/SCARLET/RED which will require such a disproportionate fast shutter speed compared to the x-sync time which is the key parameter for avoiding distortions just as read/reset time is to avoid skew/yello when filming. For sports/action photography you need a fast shutter from start to end, not only a slow but narrow slit that moves over the sensor/film.
MHO

 

[Ralph B.]

I'll take this bet.

Wait before you take that bet, they didn't tell you that they would be shooting at half a second shutter speeds.. hehehe

 

[Ralph B.]

I actually think that there will be a good deal of still photographers that will pick up a RED. In time my guess is that for many types of shooting RED's will be preferable. Too many assignments will demand bringing back motion along with stills.

I am so excited about the craft of recording images consolidating as opposed to being two islands. Still photography and motion photography were always different beasts. The transition to digital brought along with it challenges that are just now being met. Still cameras have advanced to the point where film doesn't really have any more advantages.

RED1 and now the DSMCs are the first camera systems that delivered the resolution to actually be able to capture both at the same time in a manner that can be used in a professional way. In addition EPIC appears to have removed films advantages in motion. I don't know that the size of this achievement isn't being lost. This is an entirely new thing!!!! This is like seeing the first car that flies.

 

[paulherrin]

i think those cars are next on the list... i've been waiting for quite awhile to get one.

 

[Lee Fingersh]

I'll take this bet.

I can do this about 30-50% of the time. This is not a special skill. Lots of people can do it. This particular sample was tougher than average because I was actually using two totally different cameras with different lag times.

 

[paulherrin]

point is, when <big player> beats the <big record> you want 100%

 

[Brian Petrie]

point is, when <big player> beats the <big record> you want 100%

Exactly, or when the "it" model/actress has limited time and you have to get "the shot".

 

[paulherrin]

how bout framing one shot and recording, then you can shoot some stills with another camera...

 

[Lee Fingersh]

point is, when <big player> beats the <big record> you want 100%

Sadly, at 120fps, you'd only get around 10% on shots like these.

 

[paulherrin]

that's why you have two cameras, or more. otherwise, keep doing what you're doing... i'm not complaining. i'm just trying to offer some suggestions.

 

[Curtis Stanton]

I'll take this bet.

Besides, the ball glued to the bat can be a pretty static shot--it might not be the one you want--nice to have 60 frames on either side to choose from.

 

[Ralph B.]

It remains to be seen whether or not the RED DSMC pieces will perform like (fill in your body of choice here), but I have faith in REDs development and engineering team. But what is clear is that the EPIC will have the widest performance envelop of any camera, ever. This really is monumental stuff.

Looking forward into seeing how best to use a camera with all that capability. There will be some interesting artistic choices made. Juggling in camera and post HDR, shutter speed, focal length, aperture, fps, etc... Just take that pitch and hit sequence for instance, just balancing blur in motion vs. still image is going to be an exciting. These are choices that we've never had to make before. It is giving us more options which, if we know what we're doing, is always better.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I can do this about 30-50% of the time. This is not a special skill. Lots of people can do it. This particular sample was tougher than average because I was actually using two totally different cameras with different lag times.

Lee - it is true that, if you know the game well - whether it is baseball, tennis, football, soccer, basketball, etc - you can time the action very well; you know what is going to happen... and when. No one would argue with that. But, if you shoot enough of those games, the perfectly timed action - the bat hitting the ball, the great catch on the fingertips, the ball compressing on impact - is the "very good" shot, while the "great" shot is the action you catch that you couldn't anticipate and you just "get lucky." For more of those, shooting motion just might make you "luckier" more of the time. No one is saying you are going to shoot every assignment at 120 fps; just that there will be times when getting very high resolution motion will be unbeatable.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Terry, you are giving Lee way too much credit.

I can do this about 30-50% of the time. This is not a special skill. Lots of people can do it. This particular sample was tougher than average because I was actually using two totally different cameras with different lag times.

Lee,

There is no way you are going to beat 120 fps. A good ML fastball takes about .4 seconds to reach the strike zone. 120fps * .4s = 48f. That means you'll have 48 frames of the pitch on its way to the plate. The interaction between the ball and the bat is inelastic, and therefore takes appreciable time. And depending on the hitter, etc. the ball will be leaving the bat anywhere from 70 to 100+ mph. There is no way you can account for all this.

Again, I will gladly take this bet.

 

[Antony M]

I have asked several times, but still not had an answer...

Will we be able to open Epic stills using Photoshop RAW, or will we have to use RedCine-X, then export to TIFF, then open in Photoshop?

 

[Alexander Christ]

Jarred posted that Adobe is working on EPIC R3D support in Photoshop.