Mic, Field Recorder, and Sync advice - semi urgent :)

[Pierce Cook]

Sound folk,

First. Thank you all for what you do! Please pardon my ignorance.

I've got a few projects coming up and am trying to build a relatively compact sound package. Totally open to advice, trying to keep it round about $5k if that's possible. Looking for:

A field recorder with timecode. Sound Devices or Tascam, perhaps?

A good (shotgun?) microphone. Preferably Schoeps or Sennheiser.

A good shock mount. I hear good things about Cinela. Wanting to make sure a blimp & windscreen fit in here as well... not the slide on mic windscreen, but a true kit.

Finally a good boom pole, as well. One with some length on it?

I currently own a Denecke TS-C. I've had some trouble syncing it, and wonder if someone could outline the best way to sync (the actual process/options in camera or otherwise) to make sure it's correct. I have the RED lemo TC cable. Do I need a sync-box, or will the field recorder, slate, and camera cover my bases. How do I confirm that everything is synced properly. Editing in MC5 and just want to make sure everything is fluid once I get it in.

Thank you for your time and consideration!

Warm regards,

P.Cook

 

[Rob Castiglione]

Some thoughts in response

Some thoughts in response

Hi there,

My god you are going to get a ton of differing advice. People go mad over these kinds of decisions. Here is some orthodox and some heretical advice.

Mics: Sennheiser MKH60 or consider also the excellent Sanken CS3. They are much cheaper than the Schoeps shotgun. Either is good for outdoors and for indoors the Schoeps MK41.
Recorders: You cant go past the Sound Devices units.
Mounts: Just get the standard Rycote rig including blimp for whichever mic you buy. It is the industry standard.

Here is the heretical bit. An incredibly simple way of syncing your sound is to just use Pluraleyes software which you can buy for around $100 bucks I think. Put a scratch mic on your camera and record double sound to your recorder. Pluraleyes will sync your sound perfectly in FCP or whatever edit platform you are using. Use a slate as a safety.

Best of luck.

 

[Kalani Prince]

Can't wait till Pluraleyes is available in PC-land : )

I'd definitely consider a couple of mics for different shooting situations. The Sanken CS3e is one of the best sounding shotgun mics I've personally heard but wouldn't be very desirable for interiors where a hypercardioid would be much more suitable.. If I could own ONE mic only, it would be the CS3e.

 

[Pierce Cook]

Thanks Rob & Kalani,

Thanks for the feedback! I do want to make sure I can sync TC. I've familiar with Pluraleyes, but the syncing process in Avid is more what I would like to take advantage of, I just need to make sure I'm synced to do it (also new/smaller clients eyes seem to go wide when you've got a slate out, for some reason). I usually record reference audio anyway, just my druthers to actually sync.

Rycote kit then is a go. Any suggestions on field recorders (particular model)? Or booms?

In regards to the mics - don't mind buying two of course, but wonder if one will be better suited for following someone from inside to out in a few shots where that'll be happening (interviews, so not mission critical for narrative - although all of this gear will be used on some smaller narrative projects as well, most likely).

I realize I've opened a can of works. I'm okay with that if you all are. Still welcoming feedback!

Warm regards,

P

 

[Peter Moretti]

In terms of syncing, I'd watch this Red + MC webinar. It shows syncing Red files w/ MC. (You may have to save the webinar file on your computer, I had a problem playing the whole thing streaming.)

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=52646

How many channels will you need? You could try to use a Sound Devices 702T, which has two tracks of audio, w/o using a mixer. I'd recommend their 302 mixer, but that adds more $, and I think you might be able to get away w/o using one, IF you need to keep it under $5K.

If you want one mic to do it all, I've heard very good things about the Sennheiser MKH 8050; it's small and sounds very good. But will you need to be sure your mixer/recorder has a good lowcut/highpass filter when using the 8050. I'm not sure if the 702T does or not. I know the SD 302 mixer does. Also be sure you use good suspension w/ this mic. I've heard it can be somewhat sensitive to handling noise.

You can also consider an MKH-50. It's larger, a little more expensive, but not as sensitive to handling and has built-in filters right on the mic.

You will also need a bag to carry the equipment. I use a Petrolz 302 for an SD 744T and 302. Not sure which model would be best for what you'll be carrying, but I do like Petrolz, FWIW.

As for boom pole, I'd get a carbon fiber one with internal wiring and a 90 degree angled plug at the bottom. I'd also get the pole a little longer than you think you'll need.

You'll also need monitoring headphones, Sony and Sennheiser are good choices. And you'll need cables w/ a return so you can hear what you're recording.

You will probably also want a lav and wireless setup. I think the Sanken COS-11 is a great lav. And Senn makes very nice wireless transmitters; the ME2 mic they come with is pretty brittle sounding.

BTW, I'd recommend breaking the post workflow part of your ? into a separate thread in Avid section of the Workflow forum here.

Good luck.

 

[Rob Castiglione]

Of course there is no mic that is going to be a single purpose mic. However I would probably go with MKH60. Loads of sound pros use that mic. Having said that I do love my Sanken which has a bit more character.

If you only need two channels the Sound Devices 702T. I have the 744T which is four channels but only two mic level channels in. The other two are line level so you need an external mixer to take advantage of the other two channels in the field.

 

[Pierce Cook]

Thanks all,

Still welcoming feedback if any others would be so generous as to contribute. What is/are the best Schoeps options (model #'s), just so I'm aware?

If I get a Sound Devices with Timecode, do I need a sync box, or will the camera/recorder/denecke work well enough together without?

Peter thanks for the link, I actually sat in on that session. I apologize for not being clearer in regards to Avid. I'm actually comfortable doing all the syncing and so on there, which is why I want to make sure I can sync properly before hand.

Warm regards,

P

 

[Bruce Allen]

I use SD702T - very easy workflow with Avid & RED syncing: Select audio and video clips, hit AutoSync. Done.

If you jam sync often enough, you shouldn't need a separate sync box. RED's internal clock is not as accurate though, so if you jam sync in the morning and shoot until 2AM without syncing again, then you'll likely be off RED's TC sync has always been a bit iffy, but in general once you see the numbers both matching up, you can stop fiddling with the damn menus and you're good to go. For a demanding production, I say get a sync box. For indie stuff - not necessary.

I own a Sanken CS3e too. Used it since 2008 with no problems. Also, it was good enough for Inception, so likely good enough for me The CS3e can pass as an interior mic too, unlike most other shotguns. Picks up a bit of RF noise from the 5" Red LCD though. Also its internal self-noise is relatively high (not enough to be a problem for production dialogue though).

Schoeps MK41 + CUT1 + CMC6 body is a better combo for interiors though - if you can afford 2 mics.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Michael Shilnov]

Hi there,

Here is the heretical bit. An incredibly simple way of syncing your sound is to just use Pluraleyes software which you can buy for around $100 bucks I think. Put a scratch mic on your camera and record double sound to your recorder. Pluraleyes will sync your sound perfectly in FCP or whatever edit platform you are using. Use a slate as a safety.

Best of luck.

It doesn't seem like Pluraleyes supports every format, e.g. the mxf. Did anyone here have an experience with r3ds? Otherwise it seems like a great tool for documentary work. Another thing, I think there will be a slight dirft in your audio if you use two sources with two different sample rates (say, 44.1 and 96). The longer the take, the larger the drift.

 

[Deanan]

If you jam sync often enough, you shouldn't need a separate sync box. RED's internal clock is not as accurate though, so if you jam sync in the morning and shoot until 2AM without syncing again, then you'll likely be off RED's TC sync has always been a bit iffy, but in general once you see the numbers both matching up, you can stop fiddling with the damn menus and you're good to go. For a demanding production, I say get a sync box. For indie stuff - not necessary.

Every TC based device we've tested will drive over the course of a day.
Ambient, Deneke, SD, etc and even AJA Gen 10 (not TC) all drift.
So if you're trying to judge the accuracy of redone by comparing it to other devices, then you've got misleading results.

We're asked to prove to some production about every few weeks that red one tc is good and invariably we find a bad TC somewhere in the chain or a wrong setting somewhere. Old TC devices are especially suspect and will drift faster. TC devices that aren't calibrated drift faster too. Slates an be off to each other also. And so on but people would rather blame the red one first.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Every TC based device we've tested will drive over the course of a day.
Ambient, Deneke, SD, etc and even AJA Gen 10 (not TC) all drift.
So if you're trying to judge the accuracy of redone by comparing it to other devices, then you've got misleading results.

We're asked to prove to some production about every few weeks that red one tc is good and invariably we find a bad TC somewhere in the chain or a wrong setting somewhere. Old TC devices are especially suspect and will drift faster. TC devices that aren't calibrated drift faster too. Slates an be off to each other also. And so on but people would rather blame the red one first.

For my 2c of value, this is not hard to confirm...

 

[Deanan]

For my 2c of value, this is not hard to confirm...

Probably the most common thing I run across are old TC devices that have been in continuous rental for years and just beat up.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Every TC based device we've tested will drive over the course of a day. Ambient, Deneke, SD, etc and even AJA Gen 10 (not TC) all drift. So if you're trying to judge the accuracy of redone by comparing it to other devices, then you've got misleading results.

All of these devices specify their sync accuracy in terms of ppm (pulses per million), and I think the best of them spec out at about a point-2 (.02). That means you should see less than 1 frame drift in a 12 hour period. That's been my experience with the Denecke devices. I still tell crews to re-jam every 6 hours or whenever the camera battery is changed, because many digital cameras (Red included) will not hold TC values when turned on or off.

We're asked to prove to some production about every few weeks that red one tc is good and invariably we find a bad TC somewhere in the chain or a wrong setting somewhere. Old TC devices are especially suspect and will drift faster. TC devices that aren't calibrated drift faster too. Slates an be off to each other also. And so on but people would rather blame the red one first.

The camera is generally the least-accurate part of the chain in terms of timecode drift, at least in my experience. As long as it's jammed to a solid TC & sync source, there's no problem. They're just not as reliable on internal timecode.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Heres a standard kit that pretty well no compromise and will last many years. One of my Kits excluding the Sound Design recorder has been working since the late 1980's with out any problems.


A field recorder with timecode. Sound Devices or Tascam, perhaps?

Sound Devices. Select one with features you need perhaps a 744 or a 788 ?


A good (shotgun?) microphone. Preferably Schoeps or Sennheiser.

Sennheiser MKH 60 but it will cause issues if in left in the heat in a Rycote basket. They over heat, if it does just put it in the cool for a while of a towel over it and it while and it will come back to life again. I don't know why this happens just that it does. Alternatives are Schoeps CMIT or CCM41, or older MKH416 which is very robust but does phase on pans.


A good shock mount. I hear good things about Cinela. Wanting to make sure a blimp & windscreen fit in here as well... not the slide on mic windscreen, but a true kit.

Rycote.


Finally a good boom pole, as well. One with some length on it?

Panamic, there are a couple on ebay right now. Don't get a pole that is too long or heavy, most people use a pole that is unnecessarily long. If you do get a long drama pole, get a prop for it.

Hope this helps

Dave

 

[Deanan]

All of these devices specify their sync accuracy in terms of ppm (pulses per million), and I think the best of them spec out at about a point-2 (.02). That means you should see less than 1 frame drift in a 12 hour period. That's been my experience with the Denecke devices. I still tell crews to re-jam every 6 hours or whenever the camera battery is changed, because many digital cameras (Red included) will not hold TC values when turned on or off.


The camera is generally the least-accurate part of the chain in terms of timecode drift, at least in my experience. As long as it's jammed to a solid TC & sync source, there's no problem. They're just not as reliable on internal timecode.

I also recommend rejamming half day.

Epic's clock was tested recently to compare alongside other TC devices and an extremely accurate source (very expensive too). Epic was significantly more accurate than anything else except the reference source.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Very glad to hear that Epic has solved the TC slippage problem. I had asked about this at the open house in January 2010, and got kind of a "what timecode problem?" answer.

I really look forward to working on a project with this camera soon.

 

[Carsten Fenstermacher]

Very glad to hear that Epic has solved the TC slippage problem. I had asked about this at the open house in January 2010, and got kind of a "what timecode problem?" answer.

I really look forward to working on a project with this camera soon.

I don't have any drift with TC on red mx once I started calibrating my recorder and ambients and jamming half though the day. Two hour long takes with multiple cameras for concert footage is solid. Also important to make sure the recorder is doing slightly off speed like 48048 and reporting 48000. Most timecode problems are setup problems.