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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

SSD run times

Jannard said:
Agree...

Jim
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Thought you might.... :001_cool:

Actually, these new compression options are a lot more significant than many here would probably think. In the television world, efficiency is key. That means quick backups, ease of transport, ease of processing, and ease of data recovery for post production. That's where the original Redcode variants (28, and later, 36) really shine, as they allow for surprisingly small files with little to no downside in terms of grading or matte extraction capabilities for an HD resolution finishing path. They can be stored, copied, and, yes, sent over high speed data networks (including Internet based transports) with relative ease and in a reasonable time frame, allowing, for instance, last minute pickups on a show shot in Toronto to be sent for both editorial and conform in Los Angeles without a physical delivery and its attendant delays when necessary (gee, I wonder what show I'm thinking of here? Hmmmmm....). But in the feature world, one of the knocks on Red has always been the rather significant compression ratios, which at least in theory cause a bit of loss in high frequency detail as well as unnatural noise, particularly in the blue channel, that in turn can cause some issues with matte extractions for large screen presentation. Personally, I've always felt that these problems were largely addressed with the new sensor design, but I have seen some evidence of these issues, albeit very, very rare. However, introducing the lower compression ratios more directly addresses that objection, and having both allows for tailored work paths for different projects, and more directly differentiates and answers the needs of television and features based on each one's reality. It's no longer a good camera for television but a questionable one for big features, or vice versa. It's both in one package.

Now, all you need is that ProRes/DNxHD recording module and you'll be all set....(there's that damn television mindset again.....)
 
M Most said:
Thought you might.... :001_cool:

Actually, these new compression options are a lot more significant than many here would probably think. In the television world, efficiency is key. That means quick backups, ease of transport, ease of processing, and ease of data recovery for post production. That's where the original Redcode variants (28, and later, 36) really shine, as they allow for surprisingly small files with little to no downside in terms of grading or matte extraction capabilities for an HD resolution finishing path. They can be stored, copied, and, yes, sent over high speed data networks (including Internet based transports) with relative ease and in a reasonable time frame, allowing, for instance, last minute pickups on a show shot in Toronto to be sent for both editorial and conform in Los Angeles without a physical delivery and its attendant delays when necessary (gee, I wonder what show I'm thinking of here? Hmmmmm....). But in the feature world, one of the knocks on Red has always been the rather significant compression ratios, which at least in theory cause a bit of loss in high frequency detail as well as unnatural noise, particularly in the blue channel, that in turn can cause some issues with matte extractions for large screen presentation. Personally, I've always felt that these problems were largely addressed with the new sensor design, but I have seen some evidence of these issues, albeit very, very rare. However, introducing the lower compression ratios more directly addresses that objection, and having both allows for tailored work paths for different projects, and more directly differentiates and answers the needs of television and features based on each one's reality. It's no longer a good camera for television but a questionable one for big features, or vice versa. It's both in one package.

Now, all you need is that ProRes/DNxHD recording module and you'll be all set....(there's that damn television mindset again.....)
Click to expand...

Mike... further to your perspective, when you shoot high frame rates to an SSD the compression numbers need to rise (data rate thing). Some will complain that they are forced to shoot 10:1 (or whatever)... when that has proven to give a great image for the past 3 years.

Jim
 
I have found RC 42 to show some worthy improvement and when using it in 4KHD mode it is perfect for me. Yes, some additional data to backup but some nicer quality. And 4.5k mode at RC42 is beautiful. So, in general I agree with Mike that if the quality of RC 28 and RC 36 is good enough, then shows might as well stick with it. However if data rate is not the issue and quality is a bigger factor, opt for RC42. Jim, thanks for giving us the options!
 
Im very curious to get to see some tests...

To me, RC42 looks absolutely amazing, whether it's faces, greenscreen elements or vfx plates, and since that is 7.5:1...why would we EVER need 5:1? In fact, most of the time on Red I cant even tell the difference between RC36 and RC42...so just in between 9:1 and 7.5:1 we are WAY into the tail or diminishing returns. Again, so why would we ever want to record at 5:1? To me it sounds like 7:1, 8:1 or 9:1 is the sweet range for Epic, not 5:1.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
I have found RC 42 to show some worthy improvement and when using it in 4KHD mode it is perfect for me. Yes, some additional data to backup but some nicer quality. And 4.5k mode at RC42 is beautiful. So, in general I agree with Mike that if the quality of RC 28 and RC 36 is good enough, then shows might as well stick with it. However if data rate is not the issue and quality is a bigger factor, opt for RC42. Jim, thanks for giving us the options!
Click to expand...

Define "worthy improvement." I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested in what you see that causes you to say that.
 
Funny... since we are dealing with the big dogs now, some of which were not really RED fans, the lower compression option seems to be a big factor in them "looking again" at RED. I'm not sure if it is real or a justification but it doesn't matter.

The truth is that there is a steep curve of improvement with lower compression starting at 20:1 (acceptable) to about 7:1. After that the curve noses over. While there continues to be improvement to 5:1, it becomes almost impossible to see much of a difference from there to 3:1... just more data to deal with. So when we say 5:1 is the "sweet spot", that is the very best image we can get at the best data rate. Others will argue (successfully) that 7:1 or 8:1 is just perfect. And at a much lower data rate.

My bet is that many will pull out the microscope and test this to death so I'm not concerned that everyone will have a clear picture in a short amount of time.

I personally landed on 5:1 as my pick... but yesterday switched to 6:1. I'm sure everyone will have a favorite given different conditions.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Mike... further to your perspective, when you shoot high frame rates to an SSD the compression numbers need to rise (data rate thing). Some will complain that they are forced to shoot 10:1 (or whatever)... when that has proven to give a great image for the past 3 years.

Jim
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Which begs the question, do you see future RED SSDs on the horizon that will accommodate the higher frame rates and lower compression?
 
Elsie N said:
Which begs the question, do you see future RED SSDs on the horizon that will accommodate the higher frame rates and lower compression?
Click to expand...

Moore's Law...

Jim
 
Elsie N said:
Which begs the question, do you see future RED SSDs on the horizon that will accommodate the higher frame rates and lower compression?
Click to expand...

Actually, I'm interested in the other end of the performance spectrum. Have RED considered selling the "seconds" - the SSD's that don't make the current specs, but would be good enough for, say, 8:1, 120fps, 3K 2:1, no HDRx (i.e. almost any use on Scarlet)? I know nothing more about chip fabrication than I've read on REDUSER, but it would seem that RED is taking the cream of the crop for it's SSD's, but there would be plenty of "lighter cream" available from the fabricator for Scarlet owners. I'm assuming these would be made available a a substantial discount to the current SSD's. Even half the speed of what I spec'd above would work for me, and I suspect a lot of Scarlet owners.
 
Steve Wake said:
Actually, I'm interested in the other end of the performance spectrum. Have RED considered selling the "seconds" - the SSD's that don't make the current specs, but would be good enough for, say, 8:1, 120fps, 3K 2:1, no HDRx™ (i.e. almost any use on Scarlet)? I know nothing more about chip fabrication than I've read on REDUSER, but it would seem that RED is taking the cream of the crop for it's SSD's, but there would be plenty of "lighter cream" available from the fabricator for Scarlet owners. I'm assuming these would be made available a a substantial discount to the current SSD's. Even half the speed of what I spec'd above would work for me, and I suspect a lot of Scarlet owners.
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Good question. We reject all that don't pass. I'm not sure we have the bandwidth to sell two different qualities with special WARNING markings. Will consider but probably unlikely.

Jim
 
Thanks for answering, and considering. And of course for making this technology accessible!
 
Jannard said:
Good question. We reject all that don't pass. I'm not sure we have the bandwidth to sell two different qualities with special WARNING markings. Will consider but probably unlikely.

Jim
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Jim, what about cheap, Red1 and Scarlet only media? Surely most of your rejects could handle RC42 on Red1 easily
 
Shawn Nelson said:
Jim, what about cheap, Red1 and Scarlet only media? Surely most of your rejects could handle RC42 on Red1 easily
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We already have cheap media for the R1 and Scarlet... CF cards. My bet is you'll be able to pick up a ton of them cheap as people migrate to SSD. I'm really not big on two grades of SSD but will consider it. It is a marketing nightmare.

"So... which SSDs did you bring?"

"I have 2- 64GB fast ones and 6- 128GB slow ones. What resolution, frame rate and REDCODE are we shooting today?"

People will expect our SSDs to work with all RED cameras...

Jim
 
I am afraid I am with you on that one.

People will renit their equipment.

Then it is good to know that an Epic is... Eh... Epic... An SSD is an SSD etc.

For all the indies, me included, the cheapo options are way cool, but as I am having at least one leg in each camp, I dread the "slow SSD" prospect.
 
Jannard said:
We already have cheap media for the R1 and Scarlet... CF cards. My bet is you'll be able to pick up a ton of them cheap as people migrate to SSD. I'm really not big on two grades of SSD but will consider it. It is a marketing nightmare.

"So... which SSDs did you bring?"

"I have 2- 64GB fast ones and 6- 128GB slow ones. What resolution, frame rate and REDCODE are we shooting today?"

People will expect our SSDs to work with all RED cameras...

Jim
Click to expand...

Those are good points, I can see where you are coming from.

I want to also get a pile of SSD, but $950, $1800 and $3200 per card is a pretty dang prohibitive price for someone not on a studio's budget. Maybe I can rent my Epic to Spiderman, Alien, Hobbit or Underworld and then place my order for a shoebox full of SSD!
 
One thing about this is a little confusing to me... since SSDs are the fastest media currently being offered (right?), am I to understand that there are some frame rate / compression combinations that are not currently possible? That is, they are theoretically possible for Epic to process but the media is not currently fast enough to record to? Put another way, the camera is currently faster than the media?
 
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