Sony PMW-F3L vs. RED-One ???

[Tom Lowe]

And let's not even mention Panasonic, and their business practices. Panasonic has withheld larger sensors from their prosumer cameras as well, to protect their $75,000 2/3 720p cameras.

 

[Francis Kenny]

Hi Tom. Long time. Recently I have been shooting with the Sony 9000PL. My show is part of Sony Entertainment so I don't have a choice of cameras. I tried early on to use my Red Camera but it as if I was hitting my head against a wall. I would of been able to rent my camera to production and have made a small fortune. Instead, the producer just looked at me and said Sony Pictures......Sony Cameras? Make sense?????? So I spent a year with my camera in a case lugging around a F35. The steadicam operator carried 135 lbs using the F35 fully loaded. The 9000PL is less modular but lighter. Sonys entire workflow is based around a tape workflow with their television shows. Video tape maintains a contract in place regarding residuals for actors, extras and technicians rates. It comes out to millions of dollars. So the sight of a small portable PL mount camera that would intercut with the 9000PL is a welcome addition. Would I compare it to what I've seen with Red MX or Epic? Not worth a discussion because they are different animals. The images using the 9000PL for television look good. I don't know if I would want to take it any further, or to a larger screen. But I look forward to the PMW because I work on locations that are tiny and require camera operators with heads shaped like a fish. I honestly don't think we'll see 4K images on television until televisions become 4K. I am more interested in the 3 new lenses Sony has announced that are all PL that come with the PMW. It still bothers me that buying something that will devalue in price within one year makes no sense whatsoever. Now, where are your new TL's? Francis Kenny, ASC

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

And let's not even mention Panasonic, and their business practices. Panasonic has withheld larger sensors from their prosumer cameras as well, to protect their $75,000 2/3 720p cameras.

Yep, they're protecting their $75,000 2/3 inch 720p camera by releasing a 4/3rds 1080p camcorder which can take PL mount lenses with an adaptor and at a fraction of the cost... Panasonic really suck at protecting their high end.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Yep, they're protecting their $75,000 2/3 inch 720p camera by releasing a 4/3rds 1080p camcorder which can take PL mount lenses with an adaptor and at a fraction of the cost... Panasonic really suck at protecting their high end.

Yeah, again, exactly like Sony.... after withholding that technology for five or more years. They spent the last five years trying to protect those Varicams. Panasonic and Sony are only releasing these large-sensor, interchangeable-lens prosumer cameras because they face extinction at the hands of Red. They could have released these cameras five years ago. And don't tell me the technology was too difficult. A retired sunglasses salesman figured it out. I'm surprised that you cannot see the pattern here. Sony and Panasonic withheld large-sensor, interchangeable lens cameras from prosumers, in order to protect their ultra-expensive cameras. They are now releasing large-sensor, interchangeable lens cameras because they will be decimated in the marketplace if they don't, and they have ended up throwing their high-end Varicam and F35 customers under the bus in the middle of this panic anyway!

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

A retired sunglasses salesman figured it out.

Jim does have a staff you know, you may have seen some of them posting on this forum.

I'm not sure exactly what panasonic has planned for it's pro range as I don't follow it too much but their road map seems to be focusing more on these handheld markets where I assume they have most of their business.

Road maps aren't uncommon with big companies I don't see why you won't accept that.
Red is a unique company that seems to play by their own rules, thats what we like about them isn't it?
At best I would accept that someone in the Sony department noticed the success of the line skipping camera that shall not be named and said "Hey this would be a good direction for our EX range" but even that would only be a small factor in my conclusion.
"Post hoc ergo propter hoc" Just because one decision of a camera company follows another does not always mean it is the result of the former.

 

[Tom Lowe]

It looks to me like Jim installed a couple of hairpin turns in Sony's roadmap, not to mention Panasonic's.

Do you think it was part of Sony's Roadmap to have Jim Jannard and Red supplying the cameras for Sony's biggest feature film in years, the Spiderman reboot? Somehow I doubt that was part of the roadmap.

We'll have to agree to disagree, Craig.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Sony and Pana atill have a huge market and installed base in infrastructure around studioproductions, sports, ENG busses etc etc etc, which RED has currently not even remotely tried to get in to, but that's where the big volumes of cameras are.

It's not hard to see how the Scarlets will quickly take a chip at the "DSLR" productions (likely recoding to KiPro or a "module").

Epic is a Cinematic-style camera. That market is way smaller and has been the grounds of Arri, Panavision, and Aaton + a couple of Russians...

Sony and Panny (Especially Panny) was never a huge player in that game.

Thing is that Indie (dominated by Dslrs, EX-series and HPX type cameras) and High end Cinema together is quite a big game which equipmentwise is moving towareds S35+ aquisition, and Sony and Panny wants a piece of that.

But I won't say they dropped the ball, as they were never even attempting to take it.... Maybe until now.

On a sidenote:
I am curious though, how similar are the Genesis and the F35?

 

[Shane Betts]

I agree Jeff, and Tom Lowe. Sony especially have been selling snake oil for years and justifying their deceit by the size of their sales. Yeah, Sony gear is strong. It holds together well, but it's like the fabled restaurant: "The food is crap but it comes in such large portions".

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I am not trying to excuse them, but they have really focused on TV, and it seems like they tought that "the few" who wants 35mm images on their cameras, would be content with adaptors, as they "are so few, and noone really can handle focus on S35 anyway"...

That's plain stupid, of course...

But Still a lot of TV production will not gain from an S35 sensor and that's where they collect their bread and butter, not from features... That's my only point.

 

[George D.]

If you couple the F3 with a AJA KiPro Mini it is an acceptable tools for low end productions.

I would have been very happy with one on Star Trek Phase 2. On a show like that its workflow is operationally better than a RED, and the technical advantages of a RED hardly matter.

(I had a RED One M on Phase 2 for Kitumba. You can't get buy with a "fast learners" or the like. You need professionals.)

This camera records much lower resolution, has less dynamic range and lower light sensitivity than a RED One Mysterium. A RED One MX or EPIC is even better.

No... RED has nothing to be concerned about.

In fact... if anything Sony really ought to consider lowering their price. I'd suggest and MSRP for the body only around $10000 USD, with a target street price between the EX1R and EX3. (Even so, once you add a lens kit it will cost a lot more than either of those cameras.)

Thanks, and I can see exactly what you're talking about. And, I agree that under the circumstances, Sony IS asking too much for this camera.

The RED-One is still in the lead, that's for sure. For the price, it doesn't look like ANYONE can beat it.

*Since we shoot ONLY for television documentaries, the only other camera, that I think might be as good, is the Sony PDW700 XDCAM HD 2/3" 3CCD Camera. But, that, of course, would be ONLY for television productions, NOT for the big screen. It IS on National Geographic's list of top cameras for their productions, along with the RED-One. This Sony though, with all the same bells and whistles as a "complete" RED-One, IS about 1/3 more expensive, and of course, since it uses discs, you need their disc reader. Anyone have any thoughts on THAT?

Thanks to you all, and have a super great Xmas.
.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Sony and Panny (Especially Panny) was never a huge player in that game.

I would argue that Sony has actually become a very big playing in the digital cinema market thanks to it's cinealta brand, especially with the SRW-1 Deck and it's work with Panavision on the Genesis.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Yup.

I was thinkingmore under their own brand...

But is the F35 essentially a genesis?

Cheers

G

 

[Brian Petrie]

But is the F35 essentially a genesis?

First off, I am sure others here could answer more thoroughly with hands on knowledge of both. Anyways, I haven't used both but have seen footage intercut in a test and they matched quite well. The Genesis came out long before the F35, however, once their non-compete clause was up Sony came out with the F35. Which similarly has a non-Bayer 35 mm sized 12.4MP 4:4:4 RGB sensor and with both being Sony electronics they are thought to be very similar cameras. Of course the Genesis uses all of Panavision's accessories and Panalog they still are very similar.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Thanks, and I can see exactly what you're talking about. And, I agree that under the circumstances, Sony IS asking too much for this camera.

The RED-One is still in the lead, that's for sure. For the price, it doesn't look like ANYONE can beat it.

*Since we shoot ONLY for television documentaries, the only other camera, that I think might be as good, is the Sony PDW700 XDCAM HD 2/3" 3CCD Camera. But, that, of course, would be ONLY for television productions, NOT for the big screen. It IS on National Geographic's list of top cameras for their productions, along with the RED-One. This Sony though, with all the same bells and whistles as a "complete" RED-One, IS about 1/3 more expensive, and of course, since it uses discs, you need their disc reader. Anyone have any thoughts on THAT?

Thanks to you all, and have a super great Xmas.
.

I'm not a fan of disc media in cameras.

Solid state all the way. RED has that one 100% right. I've got no idea what Sony was thinking with that format.

I should point out that the F3 is SxS, which is solid state, in case there is any confusion.

As alternatives to the PDW700 I'd point you at the upcoming RED Scarlet and the PMW 350, which is a 2/3" CMOS camera from Sony. Again I'd couple the Sony with a AJA KiPro Mini.

Its still a poor comparison to the RED cameras, but right now they fit a market need.

With Epic coming to the general market priced near $60000 USD cameras like the F3 have some life in them until Scarlet S35 shows up.

Didn't Jim ask that we keep out discussions RED only?

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Solid state all the way. RED has that one 100% right. I've got no idea what Sony was thinking with that format.

Professional disk was developed in 2003 before solid state was a viable option for video recording... I think.
It predates Blu-ray disk being released so it may also be a test bed for that technology.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Professional disk was developed in 2003 before solid state was a viable option for video recording... I think.
It predates Blu-ray disk being released so it may also be a test bed for that technology.

Its the entire concept of disc recording in a moving system I am thinking is insane.

Sony managed to make it work in what I am sure is a feat of modern engineering.

Then again... P2 was introduced in 2004. It seemed workable enough didn't it?

If they weren't hell bent on controlling media formats, they could have co-operated with Panasonic on P2.

That and SxS might be called P3

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Its the entire concept of disc recording in a moving system I am thinking is insane.

Sony managed to make it work in what I am sure is a feat of modern engineering.

Then again... P2 was introduced in 2004. It seemed workable enough didn't it?

If they weren't hell bent on controlling media formats, they could have co-operated with Panasonic on P2.

That and SxS might be called P3

Yeah but P2 was also pretty small in storage at the time and as I recall pretty expensive compared to professional disc.

 

[shashbugu]

Red-mx VS sony F3, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Are you serious?
This is a silly thread arguing blindly about Sony and Panasonic's business models. Have'nt you learnt by now if Sony or Panasonic tell you a camera is 1080P below $20k its usually at best 540P. Thats how they roll. They will lie straight to your face until you bust them. the next camera panasonic releases will be a 4k camera with three 1/3 ccds.
Come on people! These cameras are for reality TV and news gathering.

Any real filmmaker who wants solid beautiful images should check out the RED-MX. Check out all the videos for F3, f1 f6 blah blah then compare them to the link below.,,,
(make sure you watch it in compressed 1080P then compare it to raw images from your punk_a** 1080p camera you have at home)

http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/disney/piratesofthecaribbeanonstrangertides/

 

[Stuart English]

Optical Disk.

Optical Disk.

I'm not a fan of disc media in cameras. Solid state all the way. RED has that one 100% right. I've got no idea what Sony was thinking with that format.

If I recall correctly, U.S. Broadcast Network News is what Sony was thinking there... where the camera media is archived "as is".

Hence the desire for low cost "write once" media, and the uphill battle for P2, which needed to be dubbed to lower cost media for archive.

Not much to do with raising image quality... rather cost.

Also, compared to tape, optical disk (and P2) supported the option for "non-linear, direct-to-air" editing.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Yup Stuart. That's a reality I partly live in as well...