Red Ray instead of Blu-Ray?

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Just throwing a question out here:

I'm still on an old widescreen CRT with a great image. An older DVD player, and a nice DVD collection.

I know at one point in time I will have to update to an HDTV.
I don't have a problem with that.

I'm not so sure of Blu-Ray though...
I don't know if it's smart to invest in a new optical format at this point. In Belgium, most people still are on DVD, so the format will probably completely break trough in a year or so. But is it wise to invest in an optical format, when the future may lie in solid state media?

I don't have a problem with investing in Blu-Ray (although I'm not a particular big fan of the format, not because of technical reasons, but the way Sony handles its consumers with the format) if the next future format is 10 years away. But if we're talking about a good breaktrough in RED RAY or another format in 3 years or so, it seems stupid to invest in a whole new format. (points to the HD-DVD people)

I know RED Ray isn't there yet, and RED completely isn't in the consumer-space. But if my current set would be broken, at one point in the future, I want to think about bying into highly properiatary media which is maybe dead in a couple of years again. (RED RAY works with Drives and normal DVD's, right?)
I know you can't spend forever waiting for the next big thing, but just not completely fond of Blu-Ray - although I realise that technically, it's one of the best consumer HD formats at this point.

 

[Tim Hole]

Don't wait around for RED RAY as a consumer format. Blu-ray is taking far too long to standardise. I think Blu-Ray is starting to come into its own but its very slow. What annoys the crap out of me even more is that the people who should be Blu-ray standard by now aren't. I'm talking about festival screeners. Hardly anyone accepts blu-ray which is to me ridulous considering the speed the industry is moving.

In short blu-ray is not going anyway fast. I might go further and say it could even be the last for a long time. I think digital implementation will become so much of a standard that a replacement for blu-ray will be even slower.

I love actually having physical discs and shelves to glance over whilst deciding what to watch. I enjoy collecting them, in the same way I still collect vinyl. But digital will be the norm in the not too distant future me thinks.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I have ONE BR disc.

I have a lot of 1080 and some 4k masters...

I have quite a few 1080/2k deliverables. Not on physical media, though.

With the bandwith RED is hinting at (at the moment) BR will not be very nice to collect.

I like PS3, though...

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

RED Ray?

I think its an awesome technology. I suspect it could become the poor mans DCP.

But for movie watching at home?

I think you go with BluRay.

The picture quality is phenomenal. A lot of the films you can get on BluRay haven't looked that good since their theatrical runs.

And it is a LOT of films.

Why not wait for RED Ray?

It will be a cold day in hell before Sony pictures signs on to RED Ray. I think they'll ride BluRay until its plainly outdated... then they'll try to make their own format. They certainly aren't interested in using a format developed by someone who's eating their lunch in cameras.

As to the others... RED Ray requires a lot of upgrading to the finishing standards of their back catalog, plus ongoing investment in 4K they may not want to make for all their films.

Also, a great deal of material shot and finished for TV in the old SD days will never transition to 1080p very well... forget 4K. There are very few exceptions. The original Star Trek series would get remastered from new film scans for example, but even Star Trek requires new digital assets, compositing and lots of other new post. The BluRay version will be THE version for a long while.

I think BluRay may be the last physical media format, and I think it will be a while before digital downloads match, much less surpass, the quality of that medium.

It really is phenomenal. Comparing The Fifth Element BluRay to broadcast HD is eye opening. The BluRay makes the HD broadcast look pitiful. The HD broadcast in turn makes the DVD (even the Superbit editions) look pale and wan.

It isn't perfect, and frankly I'd love to see movies like 2001 remastered for 4K RED Ray.

I'm just not optimistic that that will ever happen. At least not before they fall into the public domain.

 

[Stuart English]

Blue Ray v's RED RAY

Blue Ray v's RED RAY

RED RAY? I think its an awesome technology. I suspect it could become the poor mans DCP. But for movie watching at home? I think you go with BluRay.The picture quality is phenomenal. A lot of the films you can get on BluRay haven't looked that good since their theatrical runs.

Unfortunately despite the high bit rate, actual Blu-ray image quality is about as phenomenal as a prosumer 1080p camcorder's is v's 4K RED ONE .R3D's

There is just NO comparison on image quality, and the bigger the screen the more obvious that is - RED RAY delivers true colors, resolution, dynamic range...

I accept Blu-ray has an installed base and is not likely to go away, but I for one would not purchase a system having seen RED RAY images. Just no way.

 

[Chuck Z]

What does dynamic range have to do with anything?

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Unfortunately despite the high bit rate, actual Blu-ray image quality is about as phenomenal as a prosumer 1080p camcorder's is v's 4K RED ONE .R3D's

There is just NO comparison on image quality, and the bigger the screen the more obvious that is - RED RAY delivers true colors, resolution, dynamic range...

I accept Blu-ray has an installed base and is not likely to go away, but I for one would not purchase a system having seen RED RAY images. Just no way.

See... I wrote too much again and obscured my point.

I haven't seen the RED Ray tech, but I think its so good on paper, that it could become a low end replacement for DCP. I'll go further and say that it will probably become an important tool for film makers.

It will cost studios a lot to take advantage of RED Ray with their legacy media.

At least one powerful studio is harming their own pocketbook by not using BluRay.

So, expanding and amplifying...

The context of this question is watching movies in the home.

What .r3d, or any professional format, can do is immaterial.

Most consumers don't have displays that can maximize the content on their BluRay discs. A better format is completely pointless for them until the display technology is markedly improved.

RED Ray is as useful to the owner of a brand new HDTV as BluRay itself is to an owner of a 1989 TV.

I'd be happy to see consumer HDTV's that can outperform BluRay, but I won't hold my breath.

I'd also love to see RED Ray gain wide acceptance as a consumer distribution format. Again, I'm not holding my breath.

Of course, even if you deliver 4K displays and RED Ray, most people won't notice the difference or may not care. Very few people care about images as much as we do.

 

[Michel Hafner]

I accept Blu-ray has an installed base and is not likely to go away, but I for one would not purchase a system having seen RED RAY images. Just no way.

As long as the full Blu Ray catalogue is not coming to Red Ray there is no alternative and competition here for cinephiles. No films, no sales.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Thing is...

If RED has got the catalogues for webdistribution, then I guess there is a case here.

If not, whoever comes up with a good webdistribution codec and model will get it.

There are two natural suspects:

Sony with its ps3 installed base and Apple/iTunes.

Both have the hardware and distribution model in place. All they lack is the codec and the catalogue.

As it seems like Red and Sony are not really working against eachother anymore, both are not impossible... Maybe...

 

[Stuart English]

Displays

Displays

See... I wrote too much again and obscured my point.

No it's a good point, I'm just offering a counterpoint.

Good debate.

 

[Steven Caesare]

BR decks are less that $100 these days.

You simply get one along with your HDTV. Not because RedRay won't be better, but because transition takes some time, and the cost for entry in the mean time so low, why not?

Add a RedRay deck when they becom avaialable.

-sc

 

[David Rasberry]

I just recently upgraded to a Blu-ray player at home. The image quality is certainly a huge step up from DVD. But I don't think it will achieve the consumer market acceptance that DVD did due to a little four letter acronym: DHCP. It gives the media conglomerates unprecedented control over how and under what conditions they will allow you to view their content, including whether a disc will play at all on your system.
Some examples:
The component analog output of my new Panasonic Blu-ray is DHCP restricted to 480p output. Some restrict analog to 720p, but 1080p is not available at all on any current player via the analog output. For some discs the analog output may be disabled altogether. One has to connect via HDMI to a properly licensed display to get 1080p.
This is not much of an issue for single display home use, but it greatly complicates commercial system integration where multiple displays may be used, like sports bars for instance. Even in digital mode, the number of displays a disc will show on simultaneously may be restricted to one or two.
Over the years I have added a lot to my DVD collection buying remaindered discs from the rental stores. But Blu-rays distributed for rental often have a restricted number of plays authorized, so there is no point in buying them for a collection. You will have to buy the retail sale version.
You can back up your DVD collection to a home video server with little difficulty, something that is legal under fair use. This may not be possible on a disc by disc basis with Blu-ray depending on disc authorizations, except for recapturing the reduced quality version via the analog output.
The media conglomerates are doing their best to gain absolute control over everything you see via normal consumer media distribution outlets.

Aside from issues of image quality, my hope for something like the Red-ray codec is an alternative open market for both content creators and consumers via the creative commons GPL. Otherwise both content creation and audience access will be stifled in the future.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

The biggest problem with Blu-Ray has been Sony's ineffectual sales and distribution of the medium - with all of the flavors of HD cameras out there, this should have been a frickin no-brainer, but instead Sony's POS distribution pipeline and sales of end user machines has been one of the WORST contributors to the "good enough" mentality. They should have priced these machines to move into every home in the world, and instead that opportunity was completely missed.

They taught the end user to settle for watching SD DVDs on their HDTV - the vast majority of consumers are still settling. Big fat missed opportunity there. Great opportunity for Apple and Netflix to kick portable media to the curb.

I hope RED has some sort of program in mind for making this a ubiquitious delivery system, rather than a niche product for its camera base of content providers. They need to work both ends of the food chain, producer and consumer/end user. I hope they have something big up their sleeve for this product.

 

[Vladimir Eugene]

I accept Blu-ray has an installed base and is not likely to go away, but I for one would not purchase a system having seen RED RAY images. Just no way.

Is that a hint, I'll wait then

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

I'm very pleased with my Sony vpl-hw 10 HD projector with blu-ray playback.

Nothing can beat it at home(at least at this price range).
Until we'l see an affordable 4Ks3d projection at home, I'm very satisfied with the results I'm experiencing.
Throw a nice 5.1 system with it and you have your own cinema at home.

 

[Eric Santiago]

I have ONE BR disc.

I have a lot of 1080 and some 4k masters...

I have quite a few 1080/2k deliverables. Not on physical media, though.

With the bandwith RED is hinting at (at the moment) BR will not be very nice to collect.

I like PS3, though...

I wonder if Sony will (or can) let higher res formats to playback on the PS3? Were using that now for BD test (RED clips).

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Love my HDTV and HD content (When it comes off satellite). Hate the Blu Ray player I have. Hate Blu Ray disc pricing. Won't collect them- they are too costly. I love watching movies on my iPad. Streaming HD+ content will triumph.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I prefer the quality of a 1080P blu-ray over the HD content delivered by Verizon FIOS.

The thing is, if you want to watch movies in HD now, then just get the darn blu-ray player, if you can wait for RedRay or whatever, then wait.

 

[Chuck Z]

I prefer the quality of a 1080P blu-ray over the HD content delivered by Verizon FIOS.

The thing is, if you want to watch movies in HD now, then just get the darn blu-ray player, if you can wait for RedRay or whatever, then wait.

All other things being equal, the CableLabs spec can't compare at all with Blu-ray.

 

[Jaymes Poudrier]

Buy Blur-ray!

The hints have been around that Red-Ray runs at 10mbps. If that's the case then it is streamable, it will need a dedicated Red Ray box to play it back. The cost of box ownership generally is not as big an investment as the sum of the media you will be playing off of it.

When and if this comes into play I would not expect much physical media to be laying around. So buy into the Blu-ray player and it's physical media now, buy new titles when/if they become available for Redray. Until everyone has a 4k monitor, you will be doing the best with the HDTV you've got.