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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony 4k SXRD Roll Out

Last digital screening I saw was for "Unstoppable", which was at the Rave Cinema, where you get to see an ad/logo for both DLP and Barco before the movie... but I bet if I stood up and asked the audience what resolution the projector or the DCP files were at, very few would answer "2K" -- and that's in Los Angeles, the entertainment capitol of the world.

2K is not being advertised to the world, it's not a common term for the general public, you don't see it on movie posters, etc. so why is the public supposed to know that 4K is better when half don't know what 2K means???

"IMAX" is not just a great format, it's a concept that is sold to people, it's a catchy name that sounds impressive. "4K" is a technical term that requires some understanding of digital concepts. Not that the word "4K" can't be sold, but no one has yet, just as no one has sold the public on "2K".
 
David, hit the nail on the head as usual. And on the 1080p TV front, trying to buy a HDTV that is actually 1080p is mind blowingly annoying. Once you figure out the difference between FullHD and HDReady you are almost there. But they bend and twist it with their advertising and sales techniques. I had to do a lot of research to find a good TV, David Rasberry helped me out in the end. But I am a media creator and it confused me - I know all about the difference between 1080p and 720p etc...but the way they are advertised and spec'd is insane.

Sorry rant over suffice to say no, people cannot tell the difference and they don't care. If you put two examples next to each other I'm sure they could discern a difference but more than that...
 
When I walk into a Best Buy or even a Walmart, there are huge "1080p" stickers and signs all over the big flatscreens.
 
God knows the world needs optimists like Tom, or we would not have IMAX quality time lapse movies of amazing landscapes that take our collective breaths away, but sadly David and Tim are right. I, too, deal with the public at large to know that they don't know, they don't want to know and the less they know they happier they are. The average consumer is, especially in the USA, a largely ignorant creature that shuns notions of quality in favor of getting it done quickly, cheaply (freely if possible) and on their time and terms. Do you not think that if people really cared about image quality they would download those horrible pirated movies floating all around? How many people "saw" Avatar as a download from the camcorder recording, compressed to under a 100 MB and on their laptops screens, AND laughed at you for paying $20 to see it on IMAX 3D? And they are not the exception, they are the norm. If any push is to happen, it will have to be done all on the faith of the cinema chains and studios and whatever dealings, some of them forceful to be sure, take place between them regarding higher resolution material, i.e.: more and more films are filmed and/or scanned at 4K and some of the studios start insisting on some of those films be shown at certain resolution, etc. Which may or may not be a realistic scenario, but regardless of how the players arrive at that juncture behind the scenes, one thing needs to happen in the eyes of the public as David said: a campaign proclaiming the amazing benefits of 4K digital cinema, along the lines of "four times the quality of full HD" will have to be mercilessly waged on the public until some of them begin to take notice and start a trend. Without that shameless and ubiquitous advertisement, the 4K revolution will not happen anytime soon, or worse yet, it will happen and most people won't know or won't care.
 
My point exactly, Rudi -- people have to be educated and sold to, they don't, en masse, just flock instinctively to higher quality. If standards only ever went up and up, we would have never fallen out of the large-format Hollywood production of the late 1950's.

If 4K is going to take off, people have to first know of its existence (and by people, I mean people outside of RedUser and other small groups of videophiles) and they have to be sold on its value.

I said that most people don't even know what 1080P means, I bet if I surveyed the people on a film set -- grips, electrics, AD's, PA's, hair, make-up, security, caterers, etc. -- I doubt 50% even know what "1920 x 1080 pixels" means, or what "P" means versus "i". And that's on a movie shoot! I still have to explain these concepts to producers and directors!

Sure, finally now that's it's almost 2011, HD TV sets are starting to be sold with "1080P" stickers, that's understandable, if you are in the market for a bigger and better TV set, that's one of the determining factors that either you will look for (because you did some research before walking in) or a salesman would point it out to you. There really isn't much other significant features that can distinguish one set from another, other than size and cost. But odds are high that most people are just going to be told "it's better, trust me" and leave it at that.

A 4K future isn't just going to happen all by itself, it has to be packaged and sold to the public.
 
A few thoughts....

Most of the new small IMAX theaters now are one CP2000 or 2 NEC 2k digital projectors, there is a lot of research that shows people are seeking out digital screens and are willing to drive further to them, the difference between digital and film release prints is substantial with most people able to discern the difference. The difference between 2k and 4k, not so much, especially on screen sizes less the 45', which I think is about 90% of screens.

We have done quite a few 2k vs 4k test projections and it's difficult for almost everyone viewing to tell the difference.

The digital roll out in the US is almost at 40% and when it get's to 55 or 60% I think film prints will collapse, and the rest will have to go digital overnight. As you know Technicolor just closed their release print facility in N Hollywood, which was the biggest one in LA.

I love 4k as much as anybody but it's going to be hard to get the necessary upgrades in place. It's too bad the 4k servers were not ready in time.
 
If people are overly educated/saturated to the latest tech catchphrases like "See Captain Sparo NOW! In 4K!" Next unscrupulous theatres will be claiming "IMAX 4K!" Then "6K IMAX +" Followed by "10K" and so on. The theatrical digital revolution needs to be thought through and needs to be measured, less these "revolutions" be met with the same apathy as the latest plasma screen where true advances are met now with a shrug and frown and no technological advance is honestly respected. Have to be careful what we're striving for.
 
I kind of disagree with you guys. Among my friends and people I know, even including older relatives who are totally cluless about tech, damn near all of them have a 46-inch or larger HD flatscreen in their house. You say people don't care about quality? Then why are they dropping $1,500 on these HD flatscreens? Why has Bluray overtaken DVD at every Best Buy I walk into?

Among younger people, basically everyone knows what HD or 1080p means. The torrent sites that Rudi mentioned are absolutely PACKED with Bluray 1080p and 720p rips. Probably 90% of people who use torrents know exactly what 1080p means.

I believe that you guys are underestimating what the public knows about and what they crave. What happens when the first "Planet Earth" drops at 4K and the Joneses next store have it on their 70" 4K plasma? How long after the first 4K video games drop will it be before the word "4K" is on the lips of every PC gamer on the internet?

The difference between 2K and 4K, in my opinion, is like a screengrab from a video vs a still photo. It's a huge, stunning difference, that, once witnessed, will leave a strong impression on people. This is particularly true of people sitting only several feet away from a huge PC or Mac LCD, for example. Once people catch a glimpse of that, 4K computer monitors are going to fly off the shelves.
 
Here's 2 pics from a few weeks ago at the Archlight in Pasadena which is almost all digital... the film cans are being overrun by pelican cases with G-drives in them. And a pic of the GDC server they installed, which should've been a REDRAY.
 

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4K or Cinema Experience

4K or Cinema Experience

I kind of agree with Tom here, I think we do a disservice to the consumer when we say they can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p, 2K or 4K. My analogy is, when I go into a restaurant, I can tell when it's a good meal, but I may not be able to explain to you WHY it's a good meal. However I do want to go there again.

I also agree with David, once we get that good feeling it's really handy to be able to put a label on it... if "4K" isn't the right label I wonder what is. What I reject is the "good enough" argument. Maybe that's because I work for RED, but I don't thinks so.... there has always been a market for quality.


Finally there is one factor not being discussed. Competitive advantage. Sony will sell lots of 4K projectors PROVIDED THEY ARE THE SAME PRICE AS 2K PROJECTORS because it is their competitive advantage, and over time 4K information will be placed on those 4K projectors.
 
Sure, there's a market, but you have to do some selling, some educating... "4K" is just too technical a concept, term, for the general public to just feel it's something they want when they hear it. "4K" only makes sense as a comparison to "2K" and since no one is selling the term "2K" to the general public, they aren't going to understand that 4K is better than 2K. And improved resolution is only visible in the correct viewing conditions, distance to screen, screen size, etc. The people who sit near the back of a movie theater aren't going to see a difference, people sitting in small theaters will be hard-pressed to see the improvement, etc.

Now for origination, for content creators, it's a lot easier to sell 4K for all sorts of reasons, the value of oversampling, the reduction of noise artifacts, etc.

But for theatrical projection, if picture quality was the only driving force, then why did 70mm release printing disappear? It held up better on the larger screens after all. 70mm screens did tend to do better in terms of ticket sales, but were offset by the extra cost and inconvenience, so for 4K to really take off, it ultimately can't add too much to the costs of post, distribution, storage, etc. or else the bean counters are going to say it isn't worth it even if it sells a few more tickets. I will say, however, that if enough 4K projectors are installed, it will be a lot easier to start shifting towards 4K content distribution than it was to switch from 35mm to 70mm distribution -- that's one of the beauties of digital when you get beyond hardware issues.
 
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I don't think anyone's trying to do a disservice to the public. But David is right. Remember the circles you travel in. Remember your own particular appreciation of 4K quality, etc. And remember people tend to agree with what's pointed out to them and want to believe they too are hip to quality.

Alas, we who care about these matters, tend to see the discerning few, not the undiscerning many. How many times have you seen people actually rebel against really shoddy projection? I usually find myself the sole guy who makes the trek back. And frankly, it's even worse now than it was (and it was bad then) 20 years ago.
 
Among my friends and family, I'm the only one with a large flatscreen TV set, other than my sister, who I gave my last flatscreen set (a 36" 720P Sharp) to when I got my 47" 1080P Sony.

But my parents just have old CRT screens, and all of my close friends as well, all my wife's relatives, etc. Even among my crew, only a couple have bought blu-ray players though more own flatscreens now. I couldn't give away blu-ray discs to my crew if I wanted to, so few can play them. I even have one relative who worked for Sun Microsystems on the original blu-ray standards committee and then worked for two major studios on blu-ray programming -- he just has a small 720P flatscreen, I think it's less than 36". I'm the only person among my friends who watches HD material routinely.
 
4K and the Cinema Experience

4K and the Cinema Experience

So if we just cut to the chase, what's being said is as long as the price isn't any higher than the existing technology, no-one minds if the quality increases? Seems to be true for HDTV... Here in Austin, a theatre chain that is doing just great sells hamburgers and beer for just a smidgin more than the multiplex down the road is selling popcorn and soda. And oh yeah, it also has Sony 4K projectors. Is the quality of the latter part of their cinema experience? You bet it is.

Now if you believe presentation is a race to the bottom of the cost curve, there is lots of evidence to support that. But the good news is with digital step functions in quality can often be delivered in only small increments of cost. Which means we can expand apparently niche opportunities to the mainstream much quicker than in the past. Quality will come, because it will not cost more to deliver it.
 
Resolution.

Resolution.

I even have one relative who worked for Sun Microsystems on the original blu-ray standards committee and then worked for two major studios on blu-ray programming -- he just has a small 720P flatscreen, I think it's less than 36"
Click to expand...

I get that. I have a 480p resolution 32" plasma - but that is in the living room, where that screen size and resolution makes sense. I'm not looking for absolute quality there, it's more of a social thing - radio with pictures. But, if I want to experience quality I go to a much bigger screen - 10ft wide (home theatre) or 40ft wide (commercial cinema)
 
This is a good thread. Everyone has a valid argument (for the most part). Time will tell:)
 
I believe the generally poor quality of displays and transmission standards are partly to blame here. MPEG-2 at low bit rates to early generation HD sets with crude imaging characteristics and cheap electronics is the norm. I believe that a proper side by side comparison would sway many, but the typical electronics store lacks the proper viewing environment and source material.

In terms of 2K vs 4K I think a lot depends on the quality of the 4K source material in several metrics. FWIW a big marketing push for 4K would be pre-mature until there is a decent slate of true 4K material to see. Just my 2 cents.

Cheers - #19
 
To sell this to the public we need one of two things to happen. Either you need a lot of people seeing the difference and caring enough about it to complain and bitch if they don't get it - which is just about the only thing, along with losing movie-goers, that cinemas care about. Or you need someone championing 4K as the future and chocking it down everyone's throat whether they care or not.
I think what we really need is an IMAX quality standard. Something that can be championed and visible everywhere - basically 110% foolproof digital cinema. Whether that is up to the technology or starting to insist that projectionists are certified to operate the projector ... well, whatever works!

As for blu-ray and DVD...I have plenty of friends who got 'a clue' but still don't care. They thought I was being extremely fancy when I got a blu-ray player in the summer of 2009. So, when we are going to rent a movie, it's always "what DVD?" and that makes me cringe a little.
However, a local store that I've visited for the last three years now has always had tons and tons of DVDs. Guess what? Now the shelves are packed with tons of blu-ray discs with tons of DVDs - side-by-side.

Point being that as long as there is a market, it will eventually be served. Even if the rest don't give a shit.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I believe the generally poor quality of displays and transmission standards are partly to blame here. MPEG-2 at low bit rates to early generation HD sets with crude imaging characteristics and cheap electronics is the norm. I believe that a proper side by side comparison would sway many, but the typical electronics store lacks the proper viewing environment and source material.

In terms of 2K vs 4K I think a lot depends on the quality of the 4K source material in several metrics. FWIW a big marketing push for 4K would be pre-mature until there is a decent slate of true 4K material to see. Just my 2 cents.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

I think we ALL can agree that RED has done a wonderful job marketing 4K, convinced thousands and thousands of people to purchase it. Tens of thousands more to anticipate it... and if those tens of thousands tell 10 people... time will tell. Youtube has also introduced 4K (as big a joke as it is) to online viewing. (The latter I would argue has almost EXCUSED bad quality... most youtube crap doesnt even meet SD standards... )

That all said. I think David is SPOT ON, regarding HOME use... but in theaters, at least in our town (where its been 20 years since we have had beer and food in our theaters now) quality is marketed all over the place.
Especially with the "bogus" imho IMAX 3D version versus standard 3D. Those IMAX screenings sell out FIRST. Cost MORE ($15 to $17.50 versus $10.50) a ticket because the perception is that IMAX 3D is FAR superior to REAL 3D.
But then you get inside and the only difference (perceivable) is the screen is slightly and I mean slightly curved on each end. I saw NO difference in quality from the IMAX to regular 3D projection.

No matter, people will still opt for the IMAX 3D before regular...as they continue to sell out first, so to me this is all great, because it says that people CAN BE TAUGHT THAT QUALITY MATTERS. Therefore, I think/hope that HyperVision 4K (great name choice David) will be a wonderful new "imax-like" catchphrase that marketers can use to drive ticket sales.

But 100% agree that it will take a LOT LONGER to bring that 4K into homes
because like David, I know tons of FILM PEOPLE. with SD TV Sets and HD set top box converters!
 
This is an interesting thread. I have to say that for the most part I agree with the sentiments suggesting that many (not all) of the general public will recognize a differentiator for movie presentation.

Around here in the Notrthern VA area outside Washington DC, which admittedly is in a "high-tech corridor", many folks will select a theater based on creiteria other than simply distance, especially for a high-profile pic (like Avatar).

Many folks look for "Presented in Digital", "RealD 3D" vs, IMAX showings, specific theaters that are known for screen sizes or stadium seating, etc... Online ticketing servies (like Fandango), specifically have icons and seperate auditorium schedules for digital and 3D showings, making it an obvious differentiator for folks.

As an example, there's a group of us who are looking to see TRON this weekend, and most of the folks in the group (other than geeky me) would rather see it in a digital theater, if at all possible. And will travel out of their way to do so.

Now I think some good points have been made about the lack of solid BRANDING for 4k projectors thus far, but I don't doubt that a "Presented in the Highest Definition 4K Digital format!" in order to distinguish 2K from 4K would indeed attract a significant segment of the audience. Or maybe it does need a slick name like "EPIC-Vision" ;)

But people understand resolution now. I went through the market transition from to "Full 1080p HD" while building my home theater, and when 1080 product started hitting the market for the first at reasonable price-to-size ratios, people took notice. Now everybody (including my dad) knows the difference between a 720 and 1080 flatscreen (even if they can't see it 14' away across the room).

Resolution is a selling point on TV's, computer monitors, laptops, cell phones, digital cameras, etc... to suggest that it couldn't be (again witht he right branding/campaign) at movie theaters short-changes a segment of the population for whom such specifications are part of much of the tech they grew up with and/or use daily. And probably the same segment that makes up the majority of ticket sales at that.

-Steve
 
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