ISEE3D Single lens 3D

[JD Holloway]

I'm visiting ISEE3D this week to see their prototype.

http://www.isee3d.com/

"We have a working prototype that’s currently being used with a Dalsa industrial camera and an off the shelf lens. It is capturing 3D on an 85mm and 50mm lens (with an interaxial of about 47mm and 28mm respectively). "

I have little working experience with 3D but I'm curious to see what they have concocted. I'd love to see if this tech is worth incorporating onto RED products. The IO's alone make me wonder about the system, but you guys know better.

Guys: Give me questions that I can ask them. I will report back with answers were I can.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Pedro Guimaraes]

ummm....

ummm....

I have been involved with a few prototype single lens, single camera 3D systems. 3 with RED and 1 with Phantom65. Most of them the brainchild of one of my mentors and friend, 3D legend John Rupkalvis.

As with many things in 3D land, there are many ways to slice the proverbial "tomato". Just take a look at the last 150 years of stereoscopic patents! Some of these are just are attempts to apply new technology to old concepts/designs. Incredible learning experience for sure!

Also I have recently (4 months or so ago) been on a shoot with Sean Coles of Abel Cine using the Isee3D system on a Phantom with Zeiss glass.

In general, most of these systems "work" meaning they produce 3D images. Some with more success and usability than others. They all have many disadvantages, issues and a few major problems.

None of them is remotely close to anything I would use on a real production...yet.

From what I observed of the isee3D system, it "works" but IMHO is very limited in what it can do and I personally foresee MANY potential issues resulting from the way they are achieving their results. Don't feel it's appropriate to expand on those here but naturally, THIS ALL would really depend on alot more testing first hand. So take my opinion with a grain of salt. I had one afternoon and a few shots....on one of thier prototypes.

I'm sure they are furiously working on addressing issues and working out their system. Things probably changing every week over there. Since it sounds like they are hard at work at it. I know it has been around for some time now but I imagine they probably got some funding with the 3D wave that has swept the industry. I wish them the best of luck in tier endeavor and would love to try out their newest devices....

Trust me, as a steadicam operator/stereographer(that humps alot of heavy 3D rigs for a living), a single camera 3D system is like the holy grail to me. (The panny doesn't count.)


I really want these to work! Which is why I've always had an interest in these kinds of solutions. Some of the designs show real promise and they just need a few hundred thousand dollars in development to turn them into a usable product.


In the CURRENT real world of production.....we will be shooting on beamsplitters for many years to come....


Here's a few images of a few things that might be interesting.....(sorry i was not allowed to take photos of the isee3D system)

(all of these results achieved using different methods and requiring alot more work)

Red prototype#1 (before 4kHD...would of helped all of these)

Red prototype #2

Red prototype #3 with a cameo by Designer/stereographer John Rupkalvis
you can actually freeview this one...if you try hard enough.

The Phantom 65 system designed by John Rupkalvis that I was a part of development team. Did alot of testing and actual machining. We got this to work pretty well actually. In no small part to the amazing Phantom 65 sensor.

Seen here being mounted on the bumper of a Subaru rally car, moments before being driven over 60mph on dirt roads including jumps! Testing the system for a IMAX rally movie project. Test went well and results were very good. Unfortunately phase 2 of this system which was much more advanced and elaborate never happened.

Too bad because a 3D system that can withstand those operating conditions, weigh around 20lbs. shoot 4k up to 150fps....is very appealing on many levels....

Coming around the corner at full speed....our camera on the roof at this point.

Later we mounted to stabilized flight head on a 700hp off road buggy for some chase sequences. Sean Coles of Abel Cine also worked with us on this project and can be seen in the front seat in this pic. Lucky dog. It was a fun ride!

Here is shot of more testing I was doing, where you can sort of see the results on the monitor...

All of these required post work.......we bring them into the Quantel Pablo, split them in half, fix distortions and create image pairs. In all of these system there is virtually no light loss and there are almost no color disparities to deal with like you would have with beam splitters.......so there are certainly appealing aspects of making these work.

 

[JD Holloway]

Pedro,

Thanks so much for that! The photos are a great reference point for me to begin discussion.

"from what I observed of the isee3D system, it "works" but IMHO is very limited in what it can do and I personally foresee MANY potential issues resulting from the way they are achieving their results. "

I hope to get some idea of what they've been doing in the last 4 months and where they hope to be in a year, product wise. I'd like to know what limitations the system they are prototyping will have, and whether or not they feel the problems can be overcome.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Lets keep this thread going...I read all of their White Paper stuff online and sort of get what they're talking about, so JD would love to hear about what you discover.

We're starting a doc in mid-Jan. on Psychopaths for CBC and at the moment are leaning toward 3DCC's SI-2K setup -considering it's proven, lighter, and uses the 2/3 CCD with C-mount lenses...though I would love to use R1 MX's or a couple of Epics!

Needless to say it's a lot of set up to make it all work, and with 2 MX's it will be a beast to use in the doc world...if a single camera system can be found to work it would be a major development for doc makers.

 

[JD Holloway]

I saw a Kerner-cam demo last month here in Toronto. It seems like a solid camera system with a quick setup (with technician) and factory matched Fuji zoom lenses.
Certainly worth a look. They could build it in under 12 minutes while sucking back a coffee....which is the true trade-test (smoking optional).

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

JD -have you had your visit yet?

I read about the Apple patent for glassless 3D and also saw the bit about Toshiba's display -it would appear they're doing something similar to ISee3D in the alternating right eye/left eye phasing...

 

[Petri Teittinen]

I guess this is somewhat related... I shot a bunch of tests last summer with a $150 Loreo Lens-in-a-cap 9005. It has plastic lenses and a parallax compensation slider which functions as a kind of a focus at the same time. With careful preparation one could achieve somewhat passable 3D of static scenes. It's a massive light hog; I was shooting in June in bright daylight, with the sun shining from cloudless sky, and ran out of light. Unfortunately it doesn't play nice with Optitek's Nikon mount: locking it properly results in the lens being rotated 30-40 degrees from camera horizontal. Adjusting the lens so it's horizontal to camera sensor felt pretty much impossible.

 

[JD Holloway]

I've been to the Toronto office and seen the demo!

I'm too busy right now prepping a show. Hope to do a write up soon (hopefully tonight).

 

[Edward P]

Looking for more info on Isee3d

Looking for more info on Isee3d

Hi JD,

I'm interested in this company. Can you tell us more about your thoughts on their product? Also, I've noticed that Sony is publicizing its own single lens 3d technology, for which it claims it holds a patent. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks!

Ed

 

[John Fairstein]

Pairs of wedge prisims?

Pairs of wedge prisims?

Pedro - This is very interesting. Is it one of those rigs that uses 2 pairs of wedge prisms to shift two displaced images into a single lens?

I have been involved with a few prototype single lens, single camera 3D systems. 3 with RED and 1 with Phantom65. Most of them the brainchild of one of my mentors and friend, 3D legend John Rupkalvis.

 

[John Fairstein]

Loreo Loreo Lens-in-a-Cap

Loreo Loreo Lens-in-a-Cap

Petri - I have been thinking about trying a Loreo Lens-in-a-Cap with my ALLSTAR Nikon mount. At f11 did you get a "cardboarding" effect or did the scene look natural? How close to the subject will the parallax adjustment let you work?

I guess this is somewhat related... I shot a bunch of tests last summer with a $150 Loreo Lens-in-a-cap 9005.

 

[Andrew M.]

I looked on ISEE3D patent and I wonder why someone will not make just a box (like wide MB) to be hooked to the single lenses in the front with two electric shutter mirrors placed at 45 deg, cutting through each other at 90 deg and two side normal mirrors on each side of the X mirror.

\ X /

Whole thing will be hooked to shutter sinc of the camera and camera will run at 120 fps where every second frame is recorded via left mirror and every second frame is recoded via right mirror switched from the camera sinc.
You can put much smaller version of this on the EVF and you can see in 3D what you are recording, also in 3D.

As to the electricly triggered mirrors, there is already plenty of work done on it.
We need the one that is not losing too many stops and it is fast enough for on/off operation.

Using above logic you can run even HDRx™™™™™™™™™™™™™ at 3D at 30fps and no modification of the camera firmware required. Totally snap on gizmo. The only requirement is, that camera have to run at 120fps to be compatible with current 3D TVs.

For now the poor man’s solution is to have large prism rotating in front of the lenses (60rpm) , properly shaped so it will switch rapidly at each 180 deg of its angular distance from left to right reflection in less than 5deg angular distance on each side.

Snap on box like this should be very inexpensive 3D adapter with very good image quality.

Andrew

 

[IAN SUN]

I used the first version of the loreo to shoot some tests with last summer, you need summer time light quantities for this light hog. It worked though. I have just started working with the 9005 now. It is certainly an improvement in build quality. But that is not saying much : )
I am playing around with it while working on the single lens system I am developing.

 

[Andrew M.]

There is some work done on 1ms switchable glass that may produce mirrors that could become transparent in under one ms time.
This would be the best to use for switchable reflective mirrors.

http://www.ssidisplays.com/products/electric-glass

They claim that the “electric glass” as they call it will switch in under 1ms time.