Why does Epic look like a 5D DSLR?

[Steve Sherrick]

P.S. Aaron, I've looked at that footage, and I don't see how the increased DR is useful w/o bringing the range in in post and probably adjusting some of the colors. And how do you do this in Photoshop, Camera RAW or Bridge w/ Epic still files?

I'm not saying that the increased DR and 120FPS aren't nice and there won't be situations where a stills photographer will want them. But I think, on balance, a DSLR is better suited for stills work than is an Epic (of course I could be very wrong). So in my eyes, it comes down to convenience. But if you are carrying all the kit to shoot with an Epic, is a DSLR really going to be much more to lug around?

Again, JMHO, I could of course be wrong and OBVIOUSLY don't know the Epic as well as people like Stuart, et al.

Peter, I'm not sure there is any way to substantiate that claim right now. The Epic is not available. How can you compare without testing. All we have is potential specs. Things can and probably will change right up to the point of production run. I suppose if you have had an Epic in your hand, at say one of the events Ted has been at with it you can probably speak to the ergonomics but everything else it seems is too early to speculate on right now. You may end up being right on some things, but seems only fair to wait until camera is in the market and then judge the stills capability at that point. That's what I'm planning to do.

 

[Alex Mack]

but not realistic enough

The general feeling was that it was a lot closer to what the eye sees and the way film looks. When I saw the motion, I was :eek6:. Thats what convinced me on the hdrx - much more than the hdr! I really want that motion, and its what I felt was missing in digital!

Also another advantage to epic is it uses whatever lens you could dream of, electronic or ancient. (even 16mm lenses with the crop modes!)
Not to mention, touch screen focus that supposedly works perfectly.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

To sum up this thread:

Smaller form factor and having DSLR mode has the following benefits:

1. It is versatile. It can be built upon with the professional accessories needed for the job at hand. In confined spaces, it can be built in such a way as to take advantage of that particular space. Light weight at its basics means smaller Steadicam, motion control systems, car set ups, 3d rigs, air rigs etc etc... all leading to less expensive systems to hire or buy and/or easier to make.

The above is without a doubt the most alluring feature of Epic's modularity.

But there are other benefits.

2. less baggage costs for maintainence and going on assignments. Less staff to carry around all the baggage.

3. Lighter package gets you into harder to get areas. 5k Everest or mars rover anyone?

4. Filming in sensitive areas where a dslr like object wont be so noticed as a 35mm film camera. Likewise, smaller crew. Less problem with bureaucracy.

5. The ability to quickly get pick up shots (as Peter Jackson did on District nine with red) or frame shots, testing etc...without it turning out to be a major event.

Having a DSLR option on top of the above is an added bonus.

The major benifit is using cine lenses, and lenses being the most important part of a camera system in terms of quality, you can assume it will blow $1000 systems out and also $10,000 dslr systems out of the water. But likewise, that is just a small bonus compared to the real benefits.

The benefit of having one camera which can do Pro video/stills at the switch of a button will be major benefit to events and wildlife industries and anyone having fun at a family event.

The ability to hone skills when there are no budgets in a hand held form factor alone will help you increase your skill base, give you ideas on shooting styles and basically, bring you into a closer relationship with the tools you use.

 

[Jannard]

You can certainly take your Nikon or Canon along for the ride...

It seems to me that limiting your stills options isn't the only option. EPIC will shoot 5K @ 120fps (or 96 depending on the aspect ratio). I don't know of any other stills camera that will do that. Admittedly you don't always need that, but it sure seems nice to have more than 10fps for sports as one example. Shoot 1/2000 sec shutter if you want. Maybe you'll only choose 20fps. But you will get the "moment" twice as often as at 10fps. Dynamic range has been pointed out as another big feature... something people have been clamoring for.

EPIC weighs more than a Nikon or Canon. No question. But 3 or 4 extra pounds for a body seems a small price to pay for the luxury of having options you may have never considered before. Most of you have a DSLR, so why worry? Take it. If you find yourself using both... great. If you find yourself leaving the DSLR in the bag, like I do, then you can leave it at home next trip.

You are paying a lot of money for EPIC because of what it can do. I would try it for all your options and see which system you use for any given situation. Your choice. I just find it nice that EPIC has more capability than any camera I have ever owned... and I own over 1000.

Jim

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Thanks Jim, I think that for stills work on the street, sports or nature, the
Epicis light enough to use a very portable rig like the Zacuto Crossfire.

That's a very exciting possibility.

Anthony

 

[M Taylor]

How about no more CHK CHK CHK from the noisy shutter?
Correct me if I'm wrong but, this is one thing the EPIC doesn't have, that all other DSLRs do.
Also a good thing...

 

[Daniel Kunz]

It is obvious that you are all very gear-minded. Of course 120fps to choose Raw stills from and HDRx ist very interesting and "mindblowing".
But there are a few things that aren't optimal on EPIC/SCARLET

1. viewfinder
If you ever shoot stuff like weddings where little details and moments count a *Real* viewfinder is the best thing you can have.
Not a screen which glares in sunlight or a Digital EVF with latency. It's not the same.

2. Data
If you're a good photographer you make every shot count.
I already have about 60Gigs per Day when i'm on a Shoot, so i almost need a Datahandler to unload/backup the Data.
Now if i would be shooting motion, id be handling Data more then i would be shooting. And that's not the point of shooting.
And i won't begin with selecting Stills from motion, that is just a hassle if you're used to lightroom

3. Lenses
Canon Lenses are pretty heavy already. but on a 5D they're wide and bright. Especially with the extreme High-ISO capability.
If i'd be shooting Stills on RED i'd have to pick other extreme Wideangle lenses to cover the same wideangle as with a 5D.
And picking full-manual Lenses is not always an option when you have to be quick. And i don't see anyone shooting volountarely stills with a huge and heavy PL Lens.

4. Aspect Ratio / Resolution
Red is sharp (at least i hope so) but 5k is a 2.4x:1 aspect ratio, which is not optimized for Stills. It may look cool a few times, but when you're shooting for Advertising you're mostly shooting wide for portrait/landscape formats. So even if you'd crop the 5k picture to get a usable aspect ratio you'd get a very lowres image. which is not desired.

5. Heat
Red get's hot. 5D not.

6. Ergonomics
A DSLR is made for ergonomics. Light and Sturdy. A RED is heavy and not ergonomically optimized. That means you need a handle to hold it properly and there are no neckstrap-inlets on the Brain itself. DSLR have buttons and dials well layed out for index-fingers and Thumbs.

So these are a few of my arguments against using RED as a Still camera.

 

[Daniel Kunz]

Thanks Jim, I think that for stills work on the street, sports or nature, the
Epicis light enough to use a very portable rig like the Zacuto Crossfire.

That's a very exciting possibility.

Anthony

Exiting? Stills work on the Street like that? That my friend would look pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Filming? Yes, but there's no way i am walking through a city on vacation to snap pictures dressed up like that. For me that would be a huge step backward in terms of ergonomy and ease.
Imagine taking a break at a café somewhere with that. You'd probably have to order another seat for your gear.

 

[Zac C]

It is obvious that you are all very gear-minded. Of course 120fps to choose Raw stills from and HDRx™ ist very interesting and "mindblowing".
But there are a few things that aren't optimal on EPIC/SCARLET

1. viewfinder
If you ever shoot stuff like weddings where little details and moments count a *Real* viewfinder is the best thing you can have.
Not a screen which glares in sunlight or a Digital EVF with latency. It's not the same.

2. Data
If you're a good photographer you make every shot count.
I already have about 60Gigs per Day when i'm on a Shoot, so i almost need a Datahandler to unload/backup the Data.
Now if i would be shooting motion, id be handling Data more then i would be shooting. And that's not the point of shooting.
And i won't begin with selecting Stills from motion, that is just a hassle if you're used to lightroom

3. Lenses
Canon Lenses are pretty heavy already. but on a 5D they're wide and bright. Especially with the extreme High-ISO capability.
If i'd be shooting Stills on RED i'd have to pick other extreme Wideangle lenses to cover the same wideangle as with a 5D.
And picking full-manual Lenses is not always an option when you have to be quick. And i don't see anyone shooting volountarely stills with a huge and heavy PL Lens.

4. Aspect Ratio / Resolution
Red is sharp (at least i hope so) but 5k is a 2.4x:1 aspect ratio, which is not optimized for Stills. It may look cool a few times, but when you're shooting for Advertising you're mostly shooting wide for portrait/landscape formats. So even if you'd crop the 5k picture to get a usable aspect ratio you'd get a very lowres image. which is not desired.

5. Heat
Red get's hot. 5D not.

6. Ergonomics
A DSLR is made for ergonomics. Light and Sturdy. A RED is heavy and not ergonomically optimized. That means you need a handle to hold it properly and there are no neckstrap-inlets on the Brain itself. DSLR have buttons and dials well layed out for index-fingers and Thumbs.

So these are a few of my arguments against using RED as a Still camera.

If you're shooting stills, use a still camera, if you're shooting motion with the ability to take beautiful 5K stills (whats that, 15megapixels?) then use EPIC

 

[Daniel Kunz]

If you're shooting stills, use a still camera, if you're shooting motion with the ability to take beautiful 5K stills (whats that, 15megapixels?) then use EPIC

That's what i mean. It feels like those video camcorders from Sony where you can also take Pictures with it. But you know that noone will use it professionally. It's just because it's possible that people are doing it. But in the end nobody would buy a RED over a Hasselblad if they're doing commercial Stills work.

What i do see, is that people will use Stills from Motion to use as the Cover of their DVD/BR. Or for Editorials about the movie. But just stills? don't think so.

 

[Zac C]

I know what you mean, but vogue, empire are all shooting with RED for their stills.. So apparently we are in the minority of not wanting to shoot stills with RED

 

[Daniel Kunz]

I know what you mean, but vogue, empire are all shooting with RED for their stills.. So apparently we are in the minority of not wanting to shoot stills with RED

They are shooting Motion, and using Stills for their magazine. But the aim is very much prioritized on the motion i guess. Like esquire

 

[Zac C]

They are shooting Motion, and using Stills for their magazine. But the aim is very much prioritized on the motion i guess. Like esquire

Yeah, thats what I mean, they are shooting motion, and pulling stills... gives them 24 unique frames every second to take from.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I think Daniel is not much of a candidate for the Epic. (I guess Jim will have to adjust his sales projections.) :wink5:

 

[Zac C]

I think Daniel is not much of a candidate for the Epic. (I guess Jim will have to adjust his sales projections.) :wink5:

No need for a backhanded attack there terry.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

No need for a backhanded attack there terry.

Sorry Zac. I guess you missed the smiley guy there. Next time I'll check with you before posting!

The point Daniel was making is a good one. Not everyone wants Epic for stills. (Is that OK to say?)

 

[Zac C]

Sorry Zac. I guess you missed the smiley guy there. Next time I'll check with you before posting!

The point Daniel was making is a good one. Not everyone wants Epic for stills. (Is that OK to say?)

I mearly called what you said an attack, because of the oozing sarcasm in your post. It could have been either A) Not posted at all or B) posted in a more creative manner.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I mearly called what you said an attack, because of the oozing sarcasm in your post. It could have been either A) Not posted at all or B) posted in a more creative manner.

Zac - down boy. I didn't realize that to be allowed to post here, sarcasm being in the eye of the beholder, I had to pass it by you. You'll have to send me one of your Zac-Calibrated Sarcasm Meters so I can align with you. As far as creativity... gee, sorry I am not up to your standards there either. :bored:

 

[Zac C]

Zac - down boy. I didn't realize that to be allowed to post here, sarcasm being in the eye of the beholder, I had to pass it by you. You'll have to send me one of your Zac-Calibrated Sarcasm Meters so I can align with you. As far as creativity... gee, sorry I am not up to your standards there either. :bored:

Calm down bud, I just looked through your posts... You are all worked up, so you're bleeding anger/sarcasm off anybody who says something bad about your or RED. Take some time off of RU, your posts need to relax.

 

[Daniel Kunz]

:sarcasm:

ok guys it's all good. i can cope with sarcasm. No offense taken whatsoever Zac & Terry.
I just wanted to bring some of my arguments to the table to make the discussion a little more two-sided.

I'm totally aware that RED Epic is some awesome hardware. but it's simply not everything i have ever dreamed of, and neither does it cook dinner (tho i'd have to check the temperature-specs of the EPIC to be sure about that one)

I think this is what RED is all about. Making the most professional digital camera for professional users. And if it suits their needs and whishes then they have done their job perfectly.

My Job requires alot of Photography and alot of Videography, but they don't mix as well as i would like. I currently shoot with a Canon 5D and not long ago a Sony NEX VG10 and i have to say they both have their advantages and disadvantages for different jobs even though they can both take pictures and record video.

I am very interested by the EPIC and Scarlet, and i will be buying one as soon as they are available. But i will do this for shooting high-res HDRx slowmotion video. But probably not for photoshootings

For photography i can't imagine not having a ultra fast phase-detect autofocus that works reliably with every lens that i have and a large Fullframe sensor for wonderful DoF with good lenses. alot of Dials and buttons well positioned around the body to quickly switch from one setting to another without having to go into the menu.

and for video i could need a good in-body stabilisation to reduce the jitter i have iEx with the 5D and primes when doing handheld. and a Body that is ergonomically adapted to shooting video without a full-fledged shoulder rig.
2 Things that the RED system does not deliver on yet.

IMHO the RED System is as far away from beeing perfect for stills as a camera like the 5D is from beeing perfect for motion.