film scanned to proRES...Help

[Willy Sacul]

HI all,
I am a newbie at all of this, so sorry if this is a stupid question.
I just think out of all the forums out there, THIS would be the place for answers.

Ok, I have a 5 minute short that was filmed on 35 mil and was transfered (scanned) to a quicktime ProRES 4.2.2
It was filmed & scanned in Prague/FAMU, from a film student. They gave him 2 choices for the transfer to be in, and he picked Quicktime.(wrong choice I bet)
He gave me the edited version that he said is an exact duplicate in QT properties.

Video data block #1:
Frame Size = 1920 x 1080
Compressor = Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
Quality = Most (5.00)
Video data block #2:
Frame Size = 1920 x 1080
Compressor = Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
Quality = High (4.00)

From what I understand, film scans are 10bit dpx files. So I don't know if I should treat this as a "Video" 8 bit or a "Film " 10 bit log?

I am doing color grading on it and from what I hear, 10 bit would give better headroom and better results.
Did we loose any chance to using it as a 10 bit by using a Quicktime?
Is there any way to convert it to 10 bit?
I am so confused....

Thanks,
Willy

 

[mikeburton]

HI all,
I am a newbie at all of this, so sorry if this is a stupid question.
I just think out of all the forums out there, THIS would be the place for answers.

Ok, I have a 5 minute short that was filmed on 35 mil and was transfered (scanned) to a quicktime ProRES 4.2.2
It was filmed & scanned in Prague/FAMU, from a film student. They gave him 2 choices for the transfer to be in, and he picked Quicktime.(wrong choice I bet)
He gave me the edited version that he said is an exact duplicate in QT properties.

Video data block #1:
Frame Size = 1920 x 1080
Compressor = Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
Quality = Most (5.00)
Video data block #2:
Frame Size = 1920 x 1080
Compressor = Apple ProRes 422 (HQ)
Quality = High (4.00)

From what I understand, film scans are 10bit dpx files. So I don't know if I should treat this as a "Video" 8 bit or a "Film " 10 bit log?

I am doing color grading on it and from what I hear, 10 bit would give better headroom and better results.
Did we loose any chance to using it as a 10 bit by using a Quicktime?
Is there any way to convert it to 10 bit?
I am so confused....

Thanks,
Willy

ProRes is 10bit albeit a compressed 10bit. 2k LOG DPX would be better as you could convert to lower resolution versions from the DPX but there are a whole set of computing requirements to handle 2K DPX's. Im assuming they did a one light on the footage they converted for you to QuickTime ProRes? If so you should treat it in a linear color workflow. Otherwise you'll want to doma log to Lin LUT conversion and then start grading. The ProRes files might be fine for you though depending upon your final deliverable but the DPX files will maintain more color information to work with in the DI.

 

[Willy Sacul]

Hi thanks for the reply,
Well, we have a scratch system at work and I imported it to see the properties.
It said, RGB-10 LiN. So I guess you're right. Most of the editing was done on laptops at school so I'm guessing the QT was the better option for Editing.
So, is this file (RGB-10 Lin) any better than any typical HDV 8bit footage? By that I mean, for color grading?

 

[Uli Plank]

Sure it is – if it came straight from R3Ds.

HDV is a heavily compressed GOP format at 8 bit and falls apart pretty fast in grading. ProRes is a relatively mild I-frame compression and optimized for post production – look at the data rates! It will give you much more freedom in grading.

 

[Willy Sacul]

R3D ? ....I wish....... No , it was scanned from film . It's not even a 2K plate. They gave it as a 1920 X 1080 Prores

 

[mikeburton]

R3D ? ....I wish....... No , it was scanned from film . It's not even a 2K plate. They gave it as a 1920 X 1080 Prores

Um, I would be careful what you wish for. Your 35mm film scan contains more latitude than an R3D. Maybe not as much resolution but better than a digital negative if it was scanned to 2K DPX.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

People are sort of talking around the issue. They are giving you the right answers, but there are a lot of holes in what they are saying.

ProRes is a codec

Quicktime is a container.

You can encode linear and log data using ProRes at 8 or 10 bit. By default ProRes 422 HQ is a 10 bit format, so unless you have reason to believe otherwise I would assume its 10 bit.

So waht format is it? Now you already have your answer from the Scratch system... but you don't need Scratch to figure this out. You just need your eyes, its very easy.

Open the file in Quicktime.

If it looks low contrast/greyed out in Quicktime then it was encoded in log format, and you must treat it as log in your workflow.

If it looks normal in Quicktime then it was encoded as linear data, and you can process it normally.

The next question is how are you trying to do this color grading? What software on what platform? That will determine the mechanics of setting up the project for best results.

To answer another question, ProRes HQ is much better for grading than HDV. How do you decide for yourself? First you need the technical specifications on both codecs and containers.

HDV is a 25Mbps constant bit rate codec with a resolution of 1440x1080 and working at 59.97 fps interlaced. It has 8 bit per channel color sampling, and 4:2:0 chroma subsampling. HDV is an interframe codec, which means that decoding one frame of data requires data from several adjacent frames- this is bad for performance and quality.

ProRes422 HQ is a 176Mbps variablebit rate codec with a resolution of 1920x1080 and working at 23.98 fps progressive. It has 10 bit per channel color sampling, and a 4:2:2 chroma subsampling. ProRes is an intraframe codec, which means that every frame has all the data needed to fully decode that frame. Such codecs are faster and better quality.

So a simple comparison should give you an answer. ProRes has better resolution, lower compression, deeper bit depth and more chroma subsampling data.

If you are asking these questions then you probably aren't qualified to do a grade for someone. Most of this is in the manual for color correction systems and in aftermarket books about color correction.

At the very least you should know a lot more of this basic material from the technical side of editing and photography before you begin color correction in earnest.

You may be better able to learn if you can find a colorist who will take on the job for you and let you sit at their elbow and ask questions.

If you absolutely must do this yourself... then please read the manual for your grading software at the very least! It will be time very well spent.

 

[Uli Plank]

Yes, Alexander is right to add some more explanations.

If I may add a few points: ProRes 422 is 10 bit capable, but it may contain 8 bit quality only if the source was 8 bit (probably not in your case). ProRes 4444 is capable of 12 bit and has even higher data rates, but of course it won't make a 10 bit source any better – no magic applied.

If the image is stored logarithmic, even 10 bits can hold an immense latitude, it is just a clever re-distribution of discrete numerical values. If it's linear, the lower (i. e. darker) ranges of the image offer fewer values for correction (which is re-distribution in a numerical environment), so you may run into noise or artefacts like banding.

DPX comes in different flavours, but the usual one is 10 bit log, holding lots of latitude, and no compression at all. You'll need a high speed RAID to work comfortably with the immense amount of data, but you'll have your source stored in all it's glory, no loss at all.

If you can't afford the hardware to work with that, ProRes offers an excellent balance between cost and quality – there's a reason why Arri choose it for the Alexa.

If you work with Color, read their manual carefully, it's one of the best readings Apple has provided with their software.

For further training, I'd suggest the courses on Color from Rippletraining and the book "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction" by Steve Hullfish.

Plus, sitting next to a good colorist for quite some time, as Alexander suggested.

 

[Willy Sacul]

People are sort of talking around the issue. They are giving you the right answers, but there are a lot of holes in what they are saying.


If you are asking these questions then you probably aren't qualified to do a grade for someone. .

Wow, you really weren't loved as a child, were you?
Sorry If I Am Not As "technical" As You, But FYI,....As A student of NYU Film, I have Graded 14 shorts with no complaints, (yet), So I'm betting that I can Grade this film in question. I just needed more Info as it was my first Film transfer.
--------------------------------------------

Hey, thanks Mike & Plank! some really "positive advice"
Thanks again!

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I had written something here... now its gone.

 

[mikeburton]

I think everyone should take a deep breath. This forum and many others are for these exact discussions no matter how complex or juvinile. I understand that everyone starts somewhere and at times it's less daunting to simply ask a question as apposed to RTFM. I've done it and so have all of you. Let's respect one another and help each other, that's what we are here for. Opinions about each other are pointless on an Internet forum.
Keep it colorful and respectful

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I think everyone should take a deep breath. This forum and many others are for these exact discussions no matter how complex or juvinile. I understand that everyone starts somewhere and at times it's less daunting to simply ask a question as apposed to RTFM. I've done it and so have all of you. Let's respect one another and help each other, that's what we are here for. Opinions about each other are pointless on an Internet forum.
Keep it colorful and respectful

Fair enough.

Comment amended to reflect your probity sir.

Thank you.

 

[Willy Sacul]

No juvinile people here.....but he started it....

 

[Rick Turners]

NYU has a Scratch?

 

[Philipe Ratton]

The first thing to do is actually listen to people that know what they are talking about.
Really. The real world is not a very forgiving place and that's something they don't usually teach at school.

 

[Ben Brainerd]

The first thing to do is actually listen to people that know what they are talking about.
Really. The real world is not a very forgiving place and that's something they don't usually teach at school.

This.

Not going to make any judgement calls on who was right/wrong or who started it. But if you take anything from this discussion, take some advice from someone who fairly recently made the jump from film student to working Colorist:

1. Lashing out is *NEVER* the right response. Doesn't matter who said what. The person you're lashing out at might be the producer who doesn't give you a gig and tells all his friends about you, and not in a good way.

2. You don't know it all. I don't know it all. Stefan Sonnenfeld doesn't know it all. Accept that fact and take every chance to learn from others' experience, even if the advice is presented heavy-handedly.

2a. **Redacted due to over-harshness.** I'll just say this: Think about how the statement "s A student of NYU Film, I have Graded 14 shorts with no complaints..." sounds to others.

3. Learn your tech. You're still a student, so you've got time, and the fact that you asked is a good start. The days of a Colorist being able to sit down at their station and not worry about workflow are over. You need to know about the various intermediate formats like Quicktime, DNX, Cineform, etc. Know what they can do. Read the whitepapers (Boring reading, but it's essential information) so you know the tech specs.

I could go on and on here but I promised no judgement. And it's almost 5AM.