Can Red Change the Internet?

[Matthias Wäsch]

what compression ratio does the 15 or 16 Mbit/s RED 4k (formerly RED Ray) have?

 

[JD Holloway]

I've been going on about this topic for years.

Several threads in the REDRAY area.

Of course fiber optic implementation would be a real asset.

RED is playing their cards very tight to their chests.

 

[Tom Wardrop]

I'm finding it hard to believe that a 4K video stream could be delivered in "Cinema" quality at only 2MB/s (16mbps). I'm not an expert in compression techniques, and don't know of the major difference between wavelet and block-based compression, but if RED can supposedly achieve 4K video at 16mbps with such relative ease, then why aren't we seeing such break through's in wavelet compression everywhere else?

To give people an idea of how low 16mbps for 4K footage. Blu-ray, which uses H.264 or VC1 (both fairly similar), averages a video data rate of between 30 and 45mbps depending on the scene. Many 1080p "rips" you find online manage to bring this down to about 12 - 16mbps without virtually any noticeable difference (only the most subtle shadow detail is lost).

So using the online "rips" as the baseline figure for the best quality-to-bitrate compression currently available, it achieves 2 megapixel @ 14mbps. Looking at RED's technical claims for Red Ray, they're supposedly getting as good as quality, but at over 8 megapixels @ 16mbps.

It's not unreasonable of me to wonder how on earth RED have managed to achieve a compression ratio 4 times better than that of the best H.264 compression methodologies out there. Anyone care to explain?

Yet I'd like to know at what speed will someone really need to play a
3k, 4k or 5k shot video or movie -- without it being excessively
compressed? 50mbps? 100mbps? Any idea?

Using H.264, based on the same figures I've given above, I'd say you'd be looking at least 50mbps to achieve a level of quality which would satisfy most video buffs, or more like 150 - 200mbps to achieve the same quality as blu-ray (visually lossless), but at 4K resolution. As others have mentioned though, I don't think distributing 4K video should be a concern for most people, at least not for the next 4 years I'd say. It's not only monitors and TV's that need to support 4K, but it's the connection medium as HDMI won't come close to providing the required bandwidth, and of course the hardware to play it back. Using video acceleration provided by standard graphics card manufacturers, a standard workstation should be able to handle 4K footage in about 4 years.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Sorry Tom, no, we don't care to explain. We just show the movies on the REDRay system and that shows people all they really need to know - a superb image at a ludicrous bit rate. Quite frankly, when I first saw the first public REDRay demo on the big screen, I thought they'd cheated on the encode or put up an uncompressed version by mistake it looked that good. They hadn't. They'd fooled me. I thought it was uncompressed, but it wasn't. And I should have known....

Graeme

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Sorry Tom, no, we don't care to explain. We just show the movies on the REDRay system and that shows people all they really need to know - a superb image at a ludicrous bit rate. Quite frankly, when I first saw the first public REDRay demo on the big screen, I thought they'd cheated on the encode or put up an uncompressed version by mistake it looked that good. They hadn't. They'd fooled me. I thought it was uncompressed, but it wasn't. And I should have known....

Graeme

graeme, i thought this crypton guy (did forget his name, red shoes or something) did bring the redray back from home as a xmas gift.
i am not sure anymore.

 

[Tom Wardrop]

I guess it's one of those "I'll believe it when I see it" technologies. I can only image that there must be some substantial draw-back that comes with achieving such incredible compression. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that wavelets were very processor intensive, so I guess that's probably got something to do with why we haven't seen wider adoption of wavelet-based codecs. But then I look at Cineform and there codec seems to be pretty damn quick, although doesn't get anywhere near the size-to-quality ratio RED's claiming. Maybe wavelet's get exponentially more processor intensive the smarter you encode them?

Slightly off-topic, is the red-ray media simply a standard DVD (physically speaking)? or is the physical media proprietary. I of course know the software-side is propriety, I'm purely asking about the physical medium.

 

[Stuart English]

RED RAY at 4K

RED RAY at 4K

I guess it's one of those "I'll believe it when I see it" technologies.

Once someone sees it on a 40 ft screen, they believe it

I can only image that there must be some substantial draw-back that comes with achieving such incredible compression.

The encode math is very complex, so time to encode is substantially longer than for an MPEG-2 based DVD or MPEG-2 / VC-1 / H.264 based Blu-ray...

is the red-ray media simply a standard DVD (physically speaking)?

RED RAY encoded data is media agnostic.

 

[Michael Hastings]

after blue ray...

after blue ray...

My wife just forwarded this to me:

Check out number 12:


Truths For Mature Humans

1. I think part of a best friend's job should be to immediately clear your computer history if you die.

2. Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.

3. I totally take back all those times I didn't want to nap when I was younger.

4. There is great need for a sarcasm font.

5. How the heck are you supposed to fold a fitted sheet?

6. Was learning cursive really necessary?

7. Map Quest really needs to start their directions on # 5. I'm pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

8. Obituaries would be a lot more interesting if they told you how the person died.

9. I can't remember the last time I wasn't at least kind of tired.

10. Bad decisions make good stories.

11. You never know when it will strike, but there comes a moment at work when you know that you just aren't going to do anything productive for the rest of the day.

12. Can we all just agree to ignore whatever comes after Blue Ray? I don't want to have to restart my collection...again.

13. I'm always slightly terrified when I exit out of Word and it asks me if I want to save any changes to my ten-page technical report that I swear I did not make any changes to.

14. I keep some people's phone numbers in my phone just so I know not to answer when they call.

15. I think the freezer deserves a light as well.

16. I disagree with Kay Jewelers. I would bet on any given Friday or Saturday night more kisses begin with Miller Lite than Kay.

17. I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option.

18. I have a hard time deciphering the fine line between boredom and hunger.

19. How many times is it appropriate to say "What?" before you just nod and smile because you still didn't hear or understand a word they said?

20. I love the sense of camaraderie when an entire line of cars team up to prevent a jerk from cutting in at the front. Stay strong, brothers and sisters!

21. Shirts get dirty. Underwear gets dirty. Pants? Pants never get dirty, and you can wear them forever.

22. Sometimes I'll look down at my watch 3 consecutive times and still not know what time it is.

23. Even under ideal conditions people have trouble locating their car keys in a pocket, finding their cell phone, and Pinning the Tail on the Donkey - but I'd bet everyone can find and push the snooze button from 3 feet away, in about 1.7 seconds, eyes closed, first time, every time!

24. The first testicular guard, the "Cup," was used in Hockey in 1874 and the first helmet was used in 1974. That means it only took 100 years for men to realize that their brain is also important. (Ladies.....Quit Laughing.)

 

[Terry VerHaar]

My wife just forwarded this to me:

...


Truths For Mature Humans

...

24. The first testicular guard, the "Cup," was used in Hockey in 1874 and the first helmet was used in 1974. That means it only took 100 years for men to realize that their brain is also important. (Ladies.....Quit Laughing.)

This is my personal favorite. :lol:

 

[Tom Wardrop]

RED RAY encoded data is media agnostic.

So what is RED RAY then? Is it simply a codec, or codec + container? If I was to post RED RAY-encoded footage online for example, could I put it into my container/wrapper of choice (AVI, MKV, MOV)? Up until now I've just assumed it was a codec + disc medium.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

The encode math is very complex, so time to encode is substantially longer than for an MPEG-2 based DVD or MPEG-2 / VC-1 / H.264 based Blu-ray...

And the decode math, I seem to remember, scared the hardware engineers somewhat.... You want to run that math at 4k in real time???

Graeme

 

[Stuart English]

RED RAY at 4K

RED RAY at 4K

And the decode math, I seem to remember, scared the hardware engineers somewhat.... You want to run that math at 4k in real time???

It did indeed

But being as smart as they are, they did it.

So what is RED RAY then? Is it simply a codec, or codec + container? I've just assumed it was a codec + disc medium.

It's a compressed data file, that can be conveyed across the internet, on solid state media - USB, SD, CF - or on a data disk like CD-R, DVD-R etc.

 

[Brian Petrie]

And the decode math, I seem to remember, scared the hardware engineers somewhat.... You want to run that math at 4k in real time???

Graeme

It probably wasn't their first time being a little scared...."and I want 5k 120fps with HDRx capabilities in a package about the size of...ummm my package" :smile5:

 

[Tom Wardrop]

Well given what you've said, it's exciting to realise that such a level of compression is possible. Depending on how RED wish to pursue this, I'm sure every broadcaster and digital content producer would be more than willing to push consumer hardware manufacturers into including RED RAY support in all their devices, assuming decode chips are at a reasonable price.

Given also that we're now seeing processors with more and more cores, I wouldn't be surprised if real-time RED RAY decoding will be practical on a standard workstation without needing any special hardware; just a gazillion core processor