Late...

[Esmaeil Neisi]

Just guys like you can pull out 5k 120 FPS out of technology , guys that haven't think of just making money like some other company s do.
So Jan be strong and keep going man we are waiting & waiting & waiting , No problem
It's worth what we waiting for.
Best Regard to you and your good team .

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Ikonscope DII and Otis Grapsas Drama 2/3" uncompressed raw camera, both like Scarlet still in development and neither yet for sale. Both will start at about $10k or a little less for a basic package without lenses. They are based on the same Kodak 1080p Bayer sensor.

I look forward to learning more about them. Thanks, David. Can't say I have ever been attracted to the Ikonoscope, though.

 

[neil hartop]

He never said the gear makes you a professional, he said he makes professional gear for professionals. That doesn't mean you don't have to know the gear to use it well, or that Jim looks down on other manufacturers. All he really said is that they will be focusing on serving people who are serious about their craft (oh, don't we have a word for that? Hmm, starts on 'p' I think...) and who wants to step their game up with some new gear. That includes professionals who have a 7D, 5D or shooting on film -- whatever. It's not the tool, it is the guy behind it - and read carefully the statement; you'll see that still holds true.

Basically, that is the same as saying RED won't compromise, no matter what comes their way, and as such the company's policy is to be the best at the best price -- but they are not joining the price race to the bottom; they are not going to compete in the low-end no-budget filmmaking category. If that offends you, or you feel they made promises somewhere along the way, then sorry -- but RED has shown where they stand and there is no changing that.

Stop bugging up over word choice btw. Hang around and get to know Jim and you'll understand he didn't really wish to piss anyone off - he simply made a statement about where RED stands and what their policy is; where their future lies.

...and just a friendly advice to everyone joining the discussion from elsewhere: calling REDUser(s) 'elitist pricks' is not the way to make friends. It wouldn't be any smarter than to go over to our sister site DVXUser and call them 'slobby amateurs'. Can we stop being five and at least make complaints heard in an intelligent and clearheaded way? This is turning into a shitpot and I don't want to be forced to take time off just because of bad mojo flowing through the RECON...

Thanks and happy shooting! :grouphug:

I would like you to point out exactly where I wrote 'Elitist pricks'? Thats not what I said an I was pointing out that the attitude was pushing the idea of paying more makes you more professional. I would suggest you grow up a little and maybe read or at least learn to read a little better and look at what I have written,

My problem isnt with the cameras (they are and will be the best in the world) My problem and rightly so is alot of us will opt out because we can no longer afford, my problem is people using language suggesting the price refelcts professionalism , things like 'man' up'. its all just a way of comforting you into what your paying.
My problem is with alot of people here take pleasure and comfort in the price increase without looking at reduser as a community of people from millionaires to minimum wagers and my opinion is expressed by many.

In future I would suggest if you try (badly) to quote me at least read what Im writing first and understand where Im coming from. And further more I have been introduced to the red website almost since day one years ago and have been following their progress ever since the website opened. I was there defending them from people who thought it was a joke and was glad to prove them all wrong.
If again, you quote what Ive written, remeber its that I have a problem with the language and ideas people have of this idea of professionalism through price and the idea that 5d is for amatures, and if you dont believe me look back on what everyone has been saying.

If I suddenly can afford a red/scarlet/epic, believe me I will be first in line to buy one, I just dont consider alot of people here have the right idea about what makes a pro and like yourself lack the maturity and reading ability to see a valid argument.

This forum is about debate and not about just about worshipping and jumping down peoples throats when they have a disagreement...which was my point.

Alot of us are deeply unhappy that the cameras are now way up there in the price bracket. They will be better cameras for it Im sure, scarlet and epic will be amazing but me and others have spent over a year saving just to come to a thread to watch people rejoice at a huge price increase, Remember some of us are indie film makers who hate paying rental companies 500 quid a day to rent a red and had dreamed of owning our own. The reflection of people here who have jumped down my throat and others due to our disappointment reflects badly on you and every one else here who cares only of themselves and their next super expensive camera.

 

[David Rasberry]

I look forward to learning more about them. Thanks, David. Can't say I have ever been attracted to the Ikonoscope, though.

There is an extensive thread a DVXuser titled "Any news on the Greek camera?" Otis is a highly qualified digital imaging systems engineer pursuing Drama as passionately as Jim is driving RED. But essentially a one man band at this point. Drama is built entirely of readily available off the shelf hardware typically used in industrial applications. Otis is developing a very straightforward deBayer software with preapplied curves for a film like image rendering to uncompressed raw format. He also says it is impractical to build a raw digital cinema camera for less than about $10k.

 

[conrad gaunt]

Wow. I think I might need to take a few days off from REDUSER - what the hell are people drinking?

I always drink tea make from mushrooms before I log on.. oh, you weren't being literal..

 

[Richard_JP]

I would like you to point out exactly where I wrote 'Elitist pricks'? Thats not what I said an I was pointing out that the attitude was pushing the idea of paying more makes you more professional. I would suggest you grow up a little and maybe read or at least learn to read a little better and look at what I have written,

My problem isnt with the cameras (they are and will be the best in the world) My problem and rightly so is alot of us will opt out because we can no longer afford, my problem is people using language suggesting the price refelcts professionalism , things like 'man' up'. its all just a way of comforting you into what your paying.
My problem is with alot of people here take pleasure and comfort in the price increase without looking at reduser as a community of people from millionaires to minimum wagers and my opinion is expressed by many.

In future I would suggest if you try (badly) to quote me at least read what Im writing first and understand where Im coming from. And further more I have been introduced to the red website almost since day one years ago and have been following their progress ever since the website opened. I was there defending them from people who thought it was a joke and was glad to prove them all wrong.
If again, you quote what Ive written, remeber its that I have a problem with the language and ideas people have of this idea of professionalism through price and the idea that 5d is for amatures, and if you dont believe me look back on what everyone has been saying.

If I suddenly can afford a red/scarlet/epic, believe me I will be first in line to buy one, I just dont consider alot of people here have the right idea about what makes a pro and like yourself lack the maturity and reading ability to see a valid argument.

This forum is about debate and not about just about worshipping and jumping down peoples throats when they have a disagreement...which was my point.

Alot of us are deeply unhappy that the cameras are now way up there in the price bracket. They will be better cameras for it Im sure, scarlet and epic will be amazing but me and others have spent over a year saving just to come to a thread to watch people rejoice at a huge price increase, Remember some of us are indie film makers who hate paying rental companies 500 quid a day to rent a red and had dreamed of owning our own. The reflection of people here who have jumped down my throat and others due to our disappointment reflects badly on you and every one else here who cares only of themselves and their next super expensive camera.

Bravo and applause. I'm glad someone is letting them know what's up.

Cheers

 

[David Dennis]

Alot of us are deeply unhappy that the cameras are now way up there in the price bracket. They will be better cameras for it Im sure, scarlet and epic will be amazing but me and others have spent over a year saving just to come to a thread to watch people rejoice at a huge price increase, Remember some of us are indie film makers who hate paying rental companies 500 quid a day to rent a red and had dreamed of owning our own. The reflection of people here who have jumped down my throat and others due to our disappointment reflects badly on you and every one else here who cares only of themselves and their next super expensive camera.

Nobody is rejoicing at the price increase. They are rejoicing about HDRx, which is a phenomenal breakthrough, no doubt about it. I'm sure many of RED's customers spend more on lunch for their crews than that price increase is going to cost them. In fact, I think most of RED's current customers would pay more to buy an earlier spot in line if they could.

But for more ordinary folks like you and me, listen up.

500 quid is about US$800 at the moment.

The new RED Fixed Scarlet price is about $5,750.

This means that you can have a fixed Scarlet for a touch under 8 days of RED One rental.

At the old prices, you could have had a fixed Scarlet for a touch under 6 days of RED One rental.

In return for those two days of rental, HDRx means you will be much more likely to be able to use available light in your productions and so you will probably be able to save at least $1,000 on lighting equipment.

This means that in terms of practical results, you are looking at a wash.

I'm surprised this has created such angst here. I will remind you that when the first iPhone came out, people protested wildly about the price. Six months later (when the product first became available) most of them had iPhones. I strongly suspect the same is going to happen here.

D

 

[Philipe Ratton]

Its weird, I dont see people telling panavision or arri what they should do, who should they please. I could never afford a Red one until now but guess what, that is not red's problem, that is my problem.

 

[Michael Olsen]

In return for those two days of rental, HDRx™ means you will be much more likely to be able to use available light in your productions and so you will probably be able to save at least $1,000 on lighting equipment.

D

Not to say that this isn't in part true, but to add balance...

HDR does not affect the way light is falling in the scene. Unflattering light will remain unflattering light, regardless of how many stops of DR there are. Shape, shadow, and directionality will all remain unchanged - light just won't be crushed under or clipped over as easily anymore. Just as was discovered by many with "low-light DSLRs", just because you don't need a scene to be brightly lit doesn't mean you can just do away with lighting it at all. (There, is of course, something to be said for the available light look, after all. I'm not discounting that.)

Its weird, I dont see people telling panavision or arri what they should do, who should they please.

Well, honestly, that door hasn't really been open. Or at least not publicly. RED could have (and still could) decide to just shut down or bow out of the forum and discard some degree of user opinion. I'm glad they haven't, and I'm glad they don't seem like they will.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I am not a DP, but harshly clipped highlights are due to unflattering lighting... And they can also modify shapes by eating into an outline.

Also, for someone that appreciates and understands the available (low) light look, 18 stops is something to be ecstatic about! You now get the same thing --twice-- now also on the other end, in mid-day sun, under the choppy canopy of a old elm...

There will most likely be noticeable benefits in the mid-range as well, I suppose. Hope so, cause that will make eve-ry-thing better!

Yet in the end, the only thing that really matters in this discussion is that Red is a business and not a charity, despite their misleading pricing. If raising the tag to $X,XXX.- is a better business decision, they should. Just be thankful that they are ballsy and they are not scared of large numbers, because that is the only reason people like me who don't rent their little gear have a chance at maybe buying a "film" camera (!) with unlimited stock (!) despite a less lucrative use.

Let them do their thing, and thank them if you get to buy a better camera because of whatever that may be.

 

[Niko Pueringer]

Yet in the end, the only thing that really matters in this discussion is that Red is a business and not a charity, despite their misleading pricing.

You're pushing the love for the company a little hard. When a camera package costs $40,000+, it's hardly a charity. I'm sure they appreciate that you think otherwise, though!

It's pro gear, definitely at pro prices.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

You're pushing the love for the company a little hard. When a camera package costs $40,000+, it's hardly a charity. I'm sure they appreciate that you think otherwise, though!

It's pro gear, definitely at pro prices.

They don't care what I think. They got Jackson, Soderbergh, Fincher, and tons of people that know about cameras magnitudes over magnitudes what I know about the little black boxes.

I am not pushing anything Niko. I guess you assumed that based on my avatar? Sorry, not changing it any time soon. Only if Red goes blind-corp on us. I am merely sharing my logic.

Also, I am not buying a $40k Red package. I wish! But lets say you and I were. Have you looked at other camera companies' pricing..? Or, do you consider fixed scarlet an HVX competitor..?

Red is poised to give the best bang for your buck, by a mile, and then some. Hopefully you see that, and hopefully you and I can get in on some of that goodness. Does that sound better?

 

[brian hanson]

just got back from a shoot and caught all the updates in the last week, bummed to hear what i had been assuming which is the obvious delays. i'm all for added features but the wait is hard to bear. Please keep the updates coming and keep kicking ass RED. I'm waiting for the goods.

 

[Zachary Marsh]

1. Of course I can't since it, since day one, has been obvious (at least to me and others) that "all things are subject to change" and that we should "Count on it.". So, the people that can't understand this should learn how to read. My main language isn't English, but still I can understand the meaning of those sentences. No plans ever should be made by counting on things you can't affect, but hopes of course can be made out of wishes. Well, I'm pretty sure that the RED guys wish things to have been done faster with the same result, but they didn't. Deal with it.

It's not Jim's responsibility to make great cameras, he just does.
Therefore he may decide when and how they are going to be released for sale, and of course he will also have to take the consequences of further delays. And as a customer or someone who wants to become a customer, you either wait for the product or buy something else. I myself bought a 7D a year ago, so that I can learn how to shoot in the meanwhile. Of course I wish that I had a Scarlet instead but I don't. I use the available and affordable equipment at the time. When Scarlet comes out I'll hopefully have enough money to buy it. Still, it's not RED's responsibility to make sure that I can, it's mine. Their only responsibilities is to make a camera that works the way they claim that it does, that the camera doesn't break and that they can provide service if it breaks. It's not like they are your parents and are obliged to do things for you.

2. I still haven't read a post from RED claiming that the new cameras are God's gift to mankind, maybe I missed it? They say that they're awesome, and they're probably right. As I've already said it's been pretty clear from the beginning that the time for the release was and is uncertain, and as far as I can see there are "OK" temporary substitutes out on the market, and the pro's got RED One, even with an upgrade solution.
With even better features in the Scarlet installed it will kick my 7D's ass even further, and that's the way I want it. Also, Stewart compared the Scarlet with the Panasonic camera, which is very strange. It shoots compressed, isn't upgradeable and looks like crap. In the meantime I use the equipment available, and I'm happy not having to shoot on a regular video camera.

How about you "deal with it". Nothing you've said resolves any of the concerns I raised.

The camera isn't out, I never said that RED called the camera God's gift to man that was my own terminology, and yes, people are frustrated that it isn't coming out even if things are subject to change. They know they are subject to change. That doesn't mean when it changes they can't be bothered by it.

Learn to respect others viewpoints. You absolutely can't. I know it's okay for some people who don't mind the upgrades and that's fine, they are happily waiting. There are others who are tired of the delays and pushbacks caused (many times) by raising the price and raising the features.

 

[Andrea Scaglione]

:hurray: Funny!!!

Never, it was all a scam... :shocked:

Uhmmm.... Not so much...:beatdeadhorse5:

What's your opinion: few weeks,few month, one year, two years?

It's a market problem, it's " the Arri problem".

Andrea

 

[David Rasberry]

How about you "deal with it". Nothing you've said resolves any of the concerns I raised.

The camera isn't out, I never said that RED called the camera God's gift to man that was my own terminology, and yes, people are frustrated that it isn't coming out even if things are subject to change. They know they are subject to change. That doesn't mean when it changes they can't be bothered by it.

Learn to respect others viewpoints. You absolutely can't. I know it's okay for some people who don't mind the upgrades and that's fine, they are happily waiting. There are others who are tired of the delays and pushbacks caused (many times) by raising the price and raising the features.

I too am frustrated by the delays, but then again I have been frustrated with the limitations of video cameras for decades. We all have to work with what is available to us at the time we need it and within the budget we can afford. Nothing new about that.
Why do people get so frustrated watching an open development process like this? It has been only two years since this entire camera program was first announced. At that point it was just a concept and a few renderings. No doubt Red Team is just as frustrated if not more that everthing is taking longer than anticipated. At least they have reached the stage where they are actually shooting with and modifying real production prototypes. Scarlet is still in development and still a moving target until it is formally priced and released.
Canon's new XF series camcorders were reportedly delayed a year due to deveopment problems too, but Canon unlike Red doesn't share their development process, warts and all, with their potential customers.
I for one appreciate Red's openness and think in the end it will make for a better product. I also appreciate that they are unwilling to compromise what they can achieve with Scarlet to stick to a rigid production schedule or meet a particular market price.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

:hurray: Funny!!!

Uhmmm.... Not so much...:beatdeadhorse5:

What's your opinion: few weeks,few month, one year, two years?

It's a market problem, it's " the Arri problem".

Andrea

I think you already hit the nail on the head, if you were asking me.

Not just Arri though, there are a few more companies out there that could have done this. But only Red went for it, and also decided to sell in large numbers. The rest would have kept us on a technology drip for ever, like a morphine drip, addicted, only keeping the pain from yearning for a digital camera that could produce film-like results at bay, but never fixing the problem. In comes Red, and BAM! All in just a few years.

If there is nothing pressing Red to release their second generation, that means they can take some additional time and do a lot more of their planned work upfront, to save them --and their customers-- from having to deal with all the FUD people throw at them. People may complain, but patience is still a virtue. If your camera is widely accepted (to the point customers and producers get that) you will then be able to get "more" work, easier at least... smoother sailing in the sea of rentals for camera owners. That is also worth some resources. Time is also gold.

A lot of people still say "Red" like they got the cooties, and Jim wants to win everyone over, even if they are happy and doing just fine "only" 8,000 (!) Red Ones sold. I've always said that EPIC will be a solid, dependable, bullet-proof pro tool from day one because of this. The second generation will silence the FUD.

Now, to derive an actual time estimation I'd only look at the footage they post. It looks great already, though we should expect nothing but near perfection from them, even if it is something that never existed till a few weeks ago. They have made it very clear that that is all they are after, the top and a bit higher yet.

Jim and Graeme think the barn could look better, but they are obviously getting into the top of the curve where they will get diminishing returns for their effort... which if you know Red means that they will keep on trucking full steam, but, they may also be starting to feel pretty comfortable about releasing it and achieving the impact that will crush the FUD.

My wild guess --though we've all been wrong so many times about this elusive number-- Mark gets his new babies in 2010, or January 2011.

One thing I am certain of however, is that it will not feel "late". It will feel like it is way ahead of its time.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

My wild guess --though we've all been wrong so many times about this elusive number-- Mark gets his new babies in 2010, or January 2011.

One thing I am certain of however, is that it will not feel "late". It will feel like it is way ahead of its time.

It won't feel late at all. Not 100% sure how it will feel exactly - but since I can't sleep anymore because when I close my eyes I just see HDRx on the inside of my eyelids - I suspect it will feel pretty fuckin' awesome.

 

[Ace]

I've been drinking so much coffee lately, I read this thread as Latte.

 

[Anson Fogel]

I "paid off" my MX a few months ago, meaning, collected enough in rental fees to pay for all red parts, upgrades and accessories. It looks badass and I use it 10 hard days a month. It keep working fine. EPIC comes when it comes.