3-D content delivered throw just HDMI

[Robert McGee]

I don't think that those making 3DTVs, know that the consumer is always looking for something that is cheaper, for example DVD upconverters so why no have the equivalent of that in the new 3DTV market?

I'm thinking of a box/emitter that connects to any 3D source via HDMI 1.4 input and goes out to TV via HDMI 1.3 output. This is what I'm seeing.

--------------
Blu-Ray 3D(PS3)/cable box >--HDMI 1.4--> receiver box (Depending on who makes this box, will depend on who's LCD shutter glasses you use) >--HDMI 1.3--> 120Hz 1080p HDTV.
--------------

Now for starters, the 1080p 3D will be somewhat downgraded if you use such a device but the emitter box should be far cheaper then any 3DTV on the market and should allow anyone to enjoy 3D content.

Now the limits of such a device should be discussed because if you own a PS3, and have an HDTV with a 120Hz or higher tv, this is the place to go if you don't want to have to pay like 2 to 3 grand for a new tv. For example, indie filmmakers could really take advantage of something like this.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Trouble is that a "120hz" HDTV such as the one I have doesn't have the software to alternate between two different frames.

So what you would get is a 60hz 3D experience which would be very flickery and headache inducing.

 

[Robert McGee]

If there is to be such a device, it would be for HD sets that have 120Hz or if someone has a set with a 240Hz refresh rate, it will look far better and most sports buffs like tv's with high refresh rates to watch sports.

The standard is always 60hz but a 120 hz, the image is going to move much smother for 2D and if it does then you can view 3D if this box works as it should. The box would send a signal to the glasses telling it with frame to bring in and with one to block out. It really depends on who really has the technology to build something like this. Xpan could be a very good candidate but that's just a guess.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

You can't feed it a 120hz signal though. That's what I'm saying. It's impossible.

Even if you have a 240hz set it doesn't know it's supposed to alternate between 2 frames. All the 240hz would do is show Left Eye, Left Eye, Left Eye, Left Eye, Left Eye, Right Eye, Right Eye, Right Eye, Right Eye, Right Eye, Left Eye...

It has to have firmware which tells it to go:
L,R,L,R,L,R,L,R,L,R 24 times per second.

That's what a "3D Ready" tv is. It has the software to do that just not the glasses or auxillary sync box.

What you could get in a standard "120hz" tv is a single display of left and right eye. It would be INCREDIBLY flickery though.

Nobody has the technology to do this because it's impossible.

 

[Robert McGee]

It would not feed a signal that fast throw a HDMI cable, it would need to output to a tv that is 120Hz or higher to make sure that there is no flicker when seen throw the glasses.

No one is really working on anything for older HDTV sets to make them compatible with the 3D format, both left and right eye images are being displayed on the TV at the same time but the idea is to have the box send out a signal, each unike to the left eye and the right eye. It has to send that 120Hz signal to the glasses since it cannot be sent to the tv.

Once you have that fuzzy image out to the tv, you just need to get the glasses to work properly as stated above.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Gavin is correct. And it's not just software in many cases. The hardware has to be capable too, so it may not be as easy as hacking or updating the onboard software/firmware of a 120Hz TV. It may just not be possible. Period.

And there are some "3D ready" TVs out there that do accept only a 60Hz signal. They accept the 3D as compressed side-by-side or over-under frames and then split them and display them accordingly. Technically, they are being fed 2 frames at a time, so even if they only bring in 60 frames/second, each frame technically holds two eye views. And that works over HDMI 1.3 and is currently supported by most 3D output sources, including 3D Blu-Ray players.

The point is, the issue is not what's coming out of the 3D sources, such as Blu-Ray players, DVRs, Satellite boxes, etc.. There is nothing to convert, these devices already spit out the 3D signal in every format you could really work with. Or they will just spit out right-eye-only 2D if you want. The problem lies with the displays. No converter box in between is going to make a TV display something it just can't display.

Every HDTV I know of that is capable of bringing in a 120Hz signal or splitting a 60Hz stereo-pair signal is already labeled as "3D ready". There have been "3D ready" TVs on the market and being sold for the past few years. For most of these, you only need to buy an IR sync box and your shutter glasses. The sync box typically connects directly to the TV, by a proprietary port or USB.

Technically, you could make an external box that would take the 3D signal and convert it to something a TV with 60Hz input could display as 60Hz, with each eye getting 30Hz alternating view time. It would probably cause your eyes to melt and massive brain hemorrhaging, but it's do-able in that sense. The real problem you would run into there, other than the slow flash-rate for each eye, would be synchronization. Unless the display has a way of talking to the box to sync your shutter glasses you're screwed. Because you can't sync off the conversion box, as the HDTV may be half a frame behind in displaying the image all the time or something like that compared to the actual video feed.

 

[Robert McGee]

The conversion box would work best on a 120Hz display but the real trick is this, when the signal goes out to the TV, the glasses would have to know that there coming and would have to be ready to block off the wrong frame. A 2D 120Hz display is dirt cheep now a days but one that is 3D built will coast you an arm and a leg and just a few years back, the next big thing wasn't 3D it was an HDTV that had a higher resolution then 1080p but 20 3D films released in 2009 and the unexpected success of Avatar made these things a must have.

So how do you take a 120Hz 2D display, make a converter box that allows 3D to be displayed and synced to the glasses that game with the box? Isn't there someone who made stuff like this before 3D was big news, I know read something somewhere. Their technology was for converting 2D to 3D but they also have something for playing a 3D DVD format.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

:emote_headwall:

It's VERY VERY VERY SIMPLE.

TVs display pictures.

The pictures come in through wires.

They come into the TV at specific refresh rates. In the case of HDTVs the very fastest refresh rate coming into the TV is 60hz.

You have to send each eye's view as a frame. So that means 60hz/2 = 30hz.

Since most material is 24 frames per second that means you can AT MOST get 1 single display of each eye per frame. (48hz).

Yes the TV is "120hz" but you can't feed it a 120hz signal. Syncing is easy. You could even manually sync with some sort of test pattern. But your TV can only display what comes through the wires and the most the wires can carry is 48hz to display 24 frame per second material stereo material.

The "hole" in your TV only takes 60hz material. So if you want to display 240hz material... tough luck.

:closed2ur0:

 

[Robert McGee]

:emote_headwall:

It's VERY VERY VERY SIMPLE.

TVs display pictures.

The pictures come in through wires.

They come into the TV at specific refresh rates. In the case of HDTVs the very fastest refresh rate coming into the TV is 60hz.

You have to send each eye's view as a frame. So that means 60hz/2 = 30hz.

Since most material is 24 frames per second that means you can AT MOST get 1 single display of each eye per frame. (48hz).

Yes the TV is "120hz" but you can't feed it a 120hz signal. Syncing is easy. You could even manually sync with some sort of test pattern. But your TV can only display what comes through the wires and the most the wires can carry is 48hz to display 24 frame per second material stereo material.

The "hole" in your TV only takes 60hz material. So if you want to display 240hz material... tough luck.

:closed2ur0:

What I'm trying to say simple.

Something that DOESN'T come throw the wires.

48Hz isn't enough because video games aren't 24 frames. There 30 frames(60Hz)

Thread isn't closed until because we haven't figured out how to do the following.

"Bypass the TV"

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Thread isn't closed until because we haven't figured out how to do the following.

"Bypass the TV"

You mean beam it straight into the viewer's retina from the DVD player? At some point something has to display an image and if that "something" is a TV which isn't "3D Ready" then the TV can't accept a 120hz or 240hz signal. 60hz isn't enough for tolerable 3D. How do you propose you get a 120hz or 240hz signal into a TV which doesn't accept either?

 

[Robert McGee]

You mean beam it straight into the viewer's retina from the DVD player? At some point something has to display an image and if that "something" is a TV which isn't "3D Ready" then the TV can't accept a 120hz or 240hz signal. 60hz isn't enough for tolerable 3D. How do you propose you get a 120hz or 240hz signal into a TV which doesn't accept either?

Your asking about sending a high frame rate to a tv when we should be talking about the glasses.

Until you can rap your head around that, here is an alternative to make that converter box actually work.

The box takes the left eye and the right eye and color codes it to where the 3-D content can be viewed with red/blue anaglyph glasses. When you switch to 2D, color coding is turned off. It can also be programed for different color glasses.

That might be your answer, think about it, no one is doing that.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Your asking about sending a high frame rate to a tv when we should be talking about the glasses.

Until you can rap your head around that...

My head is completely wrapped around it. Your idea is just impossible/bogus. I keep going back to high frame rates because however you are imagining 3D working, it doesn't work that way. It requires a high frame rate. Therefore if you want 3D you need high frame rates or software in the TV to convert a low frame rate source INTO a high frame rate output. 3D ready TVs take a 48hz source or splitscreen 24hz source and then display it at 120hz or 240hz. If you don't have the circuitry built into the TV to do that conversion it has to be done in an external box. that external box's output then would be 120hz or 240hz. but no TVs take 120hz or 240hz sources.

The glasses are irrelevant.

Red/Blue Anaglyph could be output by 3D BluRay players. But the general consensus is that nobody wants to watch anaglyph 3D movies.

 

[Robert McGee]

Red/Blue Anaglyph could be output by 3D BluRay players. But the general consensus is that nobody wants to watch anaglyph 3D movies.

I don't see how you can output 48Hz because for example. A Xbox 360 or PS3 game is only 30fps and it becomes 60Hz when the signal is displayed throw the TV.

Right now, if you can get it to where you have a 3D info box that takes HD 3D content for 3DTVs and color codes it for Anaglyph, then you should have something good enough that will tide you over. I was at bestbuy today and saw a Samsung 47" 3DTV for $1799.99 now to me that's pretty cheap despite that the technology is quite new.

Despite however this thing uses Active shutter glasses as I proposed, it also needs to use Anaglyph for TV owner's who's sets only have the standard 60Hz refresh rate, the converter box CAN'T SEND a high speed signal to the tv. Besides, when I checked the settings of the 3DTV I saw at best buy you would think it was sending a 48Hz signal right? WRONG, it was only sending simple 24Hz because they where showing off the 3D Blu-Ray version of Monster's VS. Aliens. Even in a 3DTV, the hardware in the TV is required to make the signal 120Hz for seemless 3D viewing.