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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Calibration software and tools - which ones

roryhinds

roryhinds

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I'm trying to figure out which is the best tool for achieve calibration on a Panasonic Plasma then at a later date on a JVC Projector.

I'm unclear as to what CalMAN does as it seems to just take measurements and you have to manually correct your display using the displays built in menu controls.

Cine-Tal's Cinespace looks confusing as I'm unsure what applications I need... is it just the CineProfiler or do I need equalEyes too?
I'm not needing my computers OS to be corrected at this stage and only want to get the Plasma to be calibrate, so can CineProfiler work with the X-rite Hubble and calibrate the Plasma? Will it create the 3D LUT which can be loaded on the the HDLink Pro 3D?

There is also LightSpace CMS.

Could anyone give advice on what calibration software will be able to calibrate a Panasonic Plasma to Rec709 and P3 (as close to P3 as the Plasma allows)

I'm going to be going...
HDSDI out
into a HDLinkPro 3D
DisplayPort to HDMI adaptor to get HDMI 10bit RGB out
into the HDMI of the Panasonic Plasma

I'll have a X-Rite Hubble as the probe although already own the i1Pro but have heard the Hubble is more precise.

I'm on a Mac but can run Bootcamp if Windows is need.
Will be using Smoke on Mac, Resolve (when its released) FCP, Color and want to be able to color correct using the Panasonic Plasma then in a few years move up to the JVC projector.
 
My understanding is that you can not have Apple Color and Resolve on the same system as Color will not even open if you have 2 GFX cards in the machine. (And you need 2 gfx cards to run Resolve)
 
Never heard that Color won't open with multiple graphics cards. In fact, I'm pretty sure that is false. I used to run Color on on a system that had dual 7800GT cards in it.

Resolve does not require two cards either. It does if you want GPU acceleration, however it's possible to run without... And it will be rather slow / not recommended. This topic was coming up when people were asking about running it on a Macbook Pro and other foolishness.

As for the original topic, Cinespace is the best, Lightspace next, then CalMan. CalMan is good software though, it just isn't as aware or capable of cinema profiles and standards. It's more of an A/V and home theatre tool. It's great for ISF calibrations and does a real good job for most display calibration. I don't think it can create LUTs that are compatible with cards like the BlackMagic ones -- never tried it and I don't think it is compatible or possible. But between LUT creation for cards like the ones from AJA or BMD, and a good color probe with CalMan, it's not too difficult to reach a good level of calibration. I'm not real familiar with Cine-Tal's tools though and have mostly just observed their use, not using them myself. I'm fairly comfortable with CalMan, it gets the job done, but I also wish it had more abilities in terms of creating LUTs and other such things.

The Hubble is indeed more precise than the i1 Pro. I'm having some issues with the i1, which does great for LCD, but seems to struggle a bit on the plasmas. There's a definite range to its consistency or a noticeable margin of error, so it's almost more of a process to continuously tweak and test calibration under ideal conditions until you get your results to average enough.

AFAIK, all the above mentioned calibration tools require Windows.

Rory, what source are you using to feed the HDLinkPro 3D?
 
Hey Jeff

Thanks for your input into this. I've read a few of your posts and you seem to be very familiar with plasma's and calibrating them.

I'm going to be feeding the HDLinkPro 3D a HDSDI source from a Kona3, 1920x 1080 10bit 4.4.4 (RED footage) and will use a DisplayPort to HDMI to get 10bit RGB out of the HDLink to the HDMI of the Plasma or JVC projector... still undecided on which display I will go for, kinda would love both :-)

I've been researching and researching while CineSpace is best suited for me, being Mac. Its very expensive at $6k just for the CineCube Visual which is what you need to create the 3D LUT's.

LightSpace is $3k but Windows only, which I don't really mind as I can run bootcamp.

I can't seem to work out what CalMAN can do for me as it seems it is just used to measure the display with the probe and then you have to manually adjust the color using the displays own built in menu system so its a trial and error thing.

How do you use CalMAN and how close can you get it to REC709 and P3 with a Plasma?
Is it a long complicated (guessing game) process, which might leave you in doubt?

Just trying to figure out what i need and how much I'm looking at.
Its still early days but I need to know what I need before I can work out how to get it :-)

Cheers
Rory
 
Hi Chaps.

Very happy to answer any questions... feel free to ask here or direct.

LightSpace CMS is now a very powerful tool, and can compete with any other CMS systems for a lot lower price. We have a lot of users in the market, and many have previously tried alternatives, which are very good, but lack the full calibration and profiling capabilities of LightSpace CMS - calibration and profiling are very different requirements.

For Plasma calibration you do need a non-contact probe - plasmas are just too noisy in shadow detail for contact probes.

Hope this helps.
 
Most CMS systems are run on seperate hardware to the main creative systems; usually a Lappy, so the OS is less of an issue... With this approach one CMS system can be used to calibrate all creative systems/workflows within a faclilty - if licensing allows, as is true for LightSpace CMS...

LightSpace CMS come with a Java App that allows it to communicate with any OS system over a network, so no problem there.
 
roryhinds said:
Its very expensive at $6k just for the CineCube Visual which is what you need to create the 3D LUT's.
Click to expand...

Don't quote me on this, but it seems to me, that once you profile your monitor with Cinespace, you can just use this profile with the upcoming Resolve on a Mac. No building of cube required with Resolve. I do not know, if this feature will survive the OSX port, but it's in Resolve 7 manual. In the manual all it says, that it needs the monitor profile and the destination profile. Will know soon enough...
 
The probelm is that you need to profile displays on a regular basis - they all drift... Any LUT is the derative of a display and destination profile, regardless of it beign done in-program, or via the external generation of a display LUT.

No calibration/LUT generation is do once and leave.

And the destination profile can be a major issue - especially as today a film print is still a main requirement. DCI is growing in need, but is not yet the default deliverable for film projects.
 
Steve Shaw said:
And the destination profile can be a major issue - especially as today a film print is still a main requirement. DCI is growing in need, but is not yet the default deliverable for film projects.
Click to expand...

Agreed, if Rec709 and P3 isn't enough and film needs to be profiled to built the cube for filmout, then yes, you would need something like Cube Builder or equivalent. But for video and DCI deliverables the tools on Resolve MAY be included. But I will be VERY surprised, if this feature survives the port.
 
Agreed - but P3 is not used as a delivery format anywhere... Rec709 and XYZ are the standards for digital delivery (not that it matters to be honest).

But, you will still need to profile the digital pipeline on a regular basis if you are to stay calibrated. And with any monitor/projector this will need to be on a very regular basis... and this takes a good Calibration system and probe.
 
Hi Steve

Could you please run through the steps needed when using Lightspace to profile and calibrate a Panasonic plasma to P3.
Can it be done to XYZ too?
What are the steps with the probe and software and how does the HDLink come into play and at what stage do you need the film profiled if you were going film out.
 
First, you have to measure the primary colours the plasma can display to make sure it can reach P3 - most can't. This requires a good probe and measurement software, such as a Hubble and LightSpace CMS with the Calibration option.

I've yet to find a non-projector display that can do XYZ...

If the display can do P3 (or what ever colour space is required) the next step is to use the calibration software and probe to set the display's manual settings to be as accurate as possible.

Then, you need to do a full profile of the display to see where there are errors.

With this profile generated LightSpace CMS can then make an accurate LUT to best match the display to the required profile - P3, Rec709, etc.

If matching to a film chain you will need to profile the film path - or have a best situation profile - and then match the display profile to that.

The LUT then needs to be held somewhere in the image path, and if the creative system can't use LUT a box such as HDlink Pro can be used.

Or, you can use SpaceMan ICC to make an ICC profile, if the creative system is ICC compliant.

Does this help?
 
Thanks Steve that helps a lot.

So in your experience what projectors have you found to achieve XYZ colour space?
 
The problem with XYZ is that to reach the required colour gamut the output light has to be able to cover a large spectrum, which for most low-end projectors means having very dense light filters... As a result they are very dull, and can't make the required brightness levels.

As a result the only projectors that can really do XYZ are high-end projectors.

I guess we need wide gamut LED :)
 
what is the conversion from P3 to XYZ? Is there much shift in it? or can you grade to P3 and do the conversion to XYZ and be confident things will look okay?
 
Steve Shaw said:
Agreed - but P3 is not used as a delivery format anywhere... Rec709 and XYZ are the standards for digital delivery (not that it matters to be honest).
Click to expand...

C'mon, Steve, you know better than that. P3 is not a format, it is a color space, and it is the presumed color space used for digital cinema deliverables. The X'Y'Z TIFF files that constitute the DCDM are assumed to have been created from material graded at 2.6 gamma using the P3 color space. They will not decode and project properly if the grading was done in any other color space, and that especially includes Rec709 (unless a proper 709 to P3 conversion is done when generating the XYZ files). The only exception would be a one off screening where the projectionist made aware that the DCP is not in the standard color space and the projector is set up accordingly.

Saying that P3 is not used for deliverables is misleading and basically incorrect.
 
P3 is a colour space format - that was just word usage as any colour space can be defined as a colour format, as against a file format... LOL

P3 was developed as a slightly larger colour space than Rec709 in an attempt to better match the colour space of print film, and was defined before any DCI spec came on the market, but has become the minimum acceptable for DCI...

It is interesting to note that 'P3' doesn't appear anywhere in the Digital Cinema System Specification.

Oh, and you can very accurately convert any other colour space and gamma to XYZ (or X'Y'Z' to be pedantic)...

What you can't do is accurately convert from XYZ or P3 ro Rec709 and back again...

This does mean that grading in P3 and then making a Rec709 TV deliverable can be a real pain.
 
Steve Shaw said:
This does mean that grading in P3 and then making a Rec709 TV deliverable can be a real pain.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty damn sure virtually every motion picture is graded that way these days.

I don't know if I call it a real pain - it's a transform (LUT) and a trim pass in the DI suite for 709 deliverables.

You can accurately convert with a transform LUT - except - any colors in your image that can be displayed in P3 and not in Rec709 - the conversion LUT does the best it can with those colors - and you make subjective/creative adjustments in a trim pass session on any scenes or shots that feel/look different.
 
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