EPIC, DR, HDR and stuff...

[Subhadip Sen]

I just read that they are talking about an optical viewfinder for EPIC.

If RED is not interested to make one there are some other third party companies like a P+S Technik (that made 4K OVF for Dalsa Origin digital 4K cameras and are still making OVF for Aaton cameras).

I saw with EPIC is like this situation that you have to remove 4 screws to take off PL mount and then you are free to access OLPF/Sensor frame.

All that means is possible easy to attach or to accommodate already existing OVF designs for 4K digital or 35mm film cameras.

And of course it will cost more but if you have cinematographer or DP that want that it could be doable with EPIC.

This is news to me! Thanks Sanjin, I will look it up. Will this void the warranty or something, though?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

This is news to me! Thanks Sanjin, I will look it up. Will this void the warranty or something, though?

Subhadip,

shouldn't but also I can't tell or guarantee anything about that...

 

[Jordi Figueras]

I'd be curious how you arrived at that conclusion.

RED's 2K capture looks nowhere near as good as its' 4K capture because the camera is not really getting 2K lines when in 2K mode. Another camera that's truly grabbing 2K lines at capture is going to look just as good in the finish. You also have to consider some downrezzing can mess up the image. HD guys have seen it happen when going to SD. A native SD camera could actually look better at the final resolution in cases where moire gets introduced when downrezzing. I usually shoot in 4KHD for that reason. It's a perfect downrez to 1080P - no weird scaling.

To me the real value of high resolution is the ability to crop. I suppose pulling still for printing purposes could be another really good argument.

Back to HDR... Interiors with very blown out exteriors are a daily problem. That's one place where big dynamic range would really, really help. And it's VERY common. I was in a really great mansion with windows everywhere recently. I didn't have the money and team to ND the whole place. VFX to replace the exteriors would be tough - though possible. And I couldn't bring the interior light levels up enough... big place and that would have been a huge lighting job. So I avoided windows in the background and waited for light levels to drop outside for the wides - which we had to shoot quickly.

It's clear to me that dynamic range is way more important than 6K or 8K for most situations. Now if 6K is required in order to have more dynamic range for some technical reason then fine. I think 4K or 5K is going to keep most of us going for a pretty long time.

I think it's reasonable to argue for more than 2K though - again, that ability to crop is a true benefit.

I was replying to a post saying that you need a 4K projector to show producers and people the difference between 4K and 2K. I was just saying that when you capture 4K and finish even in 1080p the resulting image is more consistent and has more detail than a 1080p or 2K acquired image. I arrived to that conclusion through my own testing, which may not be the most scientific way to do it, but it has been in my "real world" situation.

I would never say that I prefer resolution over DR. In fact I think RED is allowing us not to choose. Please! Give me more DR, but the extra resolution is always welcomed. Why must I choose what I prefer if I can have both? (which RED is always developing side by side... as far as I know).

We have a movie going to Venezia Film Festival shot with RED at 4KHD and finished in 2K. The director needed to crop some images in the end and that showed the extra resolution, as you said, is good for that, but I convince him to only do it in some shots that had no relation with the rest of the sequences, 'cause you could see the difference in detail. The downrezz in the CC was really good and the producers were just amazed at how "4K" looked in the screen... (I told them the projector was 2K). The only thing I needed more in that movie was some DR (for some exteriors hi contrasted scenes), but in the end, the M sensor, really surprised me in the CC bay. Anyway, can't wait to get my RED ONE upgraded for that extra 2 stops DR. We think alike in that matter... but, for, me, not at the cost of the beauty of 4K images.

I must say I haven't yet had the chance to try Alexa, but I like their aproach of downsampling in camera, not just have a 2K sensor and take that out... but you know, this technical discussion has been around this forum for a long time now.

Cheers.

---------

Jordi Figueras Bagué, DP

 

[Emanuel A.]

Not sure what this all means... sometimes the DP decides, sometimes the director, sometimes it is someone else, sometimes a combination. It all depends. Long and short of it is that most of the time the correct decision is made for the movie at that time.

(...)

Jim

I'm afraid at this point me and Joofa we've already been sailing in other waters

The point is the director/cinematographer/producer vibe depends actually on a lot of circumstances indeed, such as the model where the decision takes place. The role/weight of the craft of director is as different as the 'product model' or concept or yet project design varies.

Besides, the hollywood formula has been tested in Europe for years with no success so far, in any way other than strictly majors' distribution related and oriented.

 

[Jon B.]

Not sure what this all means... sometimes the DP decides, sometimes the director, sometimes it is someone else, sometimes a combination. It all depends. Long and short of it is that most of the time the correct decision is made for the movie at that time.

All we know is that we are working hard to give everyone a good option. It seems that the more work we do, the better the chances are that stuff will be shot on RED.

I can tell you that there is a ton of stuff currently being shot on RED and more in the works. We are not the only option, but we are certainly one of the considered options at the highest level. Good for us.

Jim

I appreciate the Director names. That is what I look for in a movie and would also be most curious about. You're on the right track for what I want to hear as usual Jim.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I think it is OK if done where readers can instantly scroll up and judge the extraction, but I wouldn't fragment posts when quoting out of the original thread, especially to a different forum. But now that we got the link (Thanks)...

I am interested in seeing what is going in the can, and WYSIWYG is more of a digital world thing. You are viewing "the negative", so if you are using a reference monitor off a proper output and with proper processing, then you are getting as close as anyone ever will to looking in their can, or box. A video tap is not the negative, but a separate camera the audience will ever see, and optical EVFs skip the capture medium step all together. Also, if a DP wants to judge the lighting with their eyes, you can still do that regardless of what you are recording it with.

But more importantly, I am not an experienced DP with lots of negative use under my belt. Those who are able to say otherwise can chose to stick to the workflow they've come to know so well, if they chose to.

But with professional cinema digital acquisition, I too can move forward with the feeling only a foot firmly planted solid ground can give you. I feel the ground, I see the ground, and oh look that's my foot, right on it! Accurate waveform available for tricky frames you say? Yaaaay! Now even I have a very good idea of what we got here... Onwards! Cue geeky super hero music!

the camera is not really getting 2K lines when in 2K mode.

Really? I didn't know this. What is the number?

 

[Gene Crucean]

Not sure what this all means... sometimes the DP decides, sometimes the director, sometimes it is someone else, sometimes a combination. It all depends. Long and short of it is that most of the time the correct decision is made for the movie at that time.

All we know is that we are working hard to give everyone a good option. It seems that the more work we do, the better the chances are that stuff will be shot on RED.

I can tell you that there is a ton of stuff currently being shot on RED and more in the works. We are not the only option, but we are certainly one of the considered options at the highest level. Good for us.

Jim

Red at the XGames:

 

[Joel Kaye]

I
Really? I didn't know this. What is the number?

Not sure... but it's losing some resolution during the debayer I assume. So 4K capture is really about 3.2K lines. 2K feels like 1.5K I guess. It's noticeably softer, there's no missing it. Other 1080P cameras feel like they are getting more resolution to me than a RED at 2K. A RED at 3K still seems to look very good at 1080P to me.

120FPS is awfully cool when you need it - not a bad tradeoff.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Ohhh, yes, I see what you are saying now.

You should shoot 3k for 2k final though, as you said.

Shooting 2k Bayer for 2k RGB is never recommended.

 

[Kirk Melby]

debayer is 2/3's
4096 is 2730
3072 is 2048
2048 is 1365

That's why Arri uses a 2880 sensor for a 1920 image.

 

[Shane Betts]

debayer is 2/3's

That's not a hard and fast rule as far as I understand it. Jim and Graeme have recently spoken about their tech yielding 80%. For 4096 that would mean 3,276 and for 4.5k, 3,600.

Certainly 3.2k is where they've always said the R1's 4k sensor was working and obviously bumping it up to 4.5k has increased it.

 

[Deanan]

debayer is 2/3's
4096 is 2730
3072 is 2048
2048 is 1365

That's why Arri uses a 2880 sensor for a 1920 image.

Debayer is more like 80% resolution at least with our camera and tools.

I can't speak for Arri's reasons but doing a 2880 to 1920 yields a convenient debayer that could be combined with a somewhat uniform 3:2 scale. However, it doesn't mean that you get a full 1920 resolution out. The zone plate from the Alexa showed around 1.7k.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=627850&postcount=1

 

[craigjkharris]

EPIC uses the same sensor as the RED ONE M-X. People seem to be very happy with the R1 M-X. However, it should be noted that the RED ONE M-X processes at 12 bit. EPIC is 16 bit. And that doesn't count the EPIC HDR mode.

Is there a reason for going as high as 16bit? Can the human eye even tell the difference between 10 and 12 bit? I've heard many engineers say that you can't see the difference. Is the benefit for CG people and if so, what kind of difference does it make for them?

 

[Deanan]

Is there a reason for going as high as 16bit? Can the human eye even tell the difference between 10 and 12 bit? I've heard many engineers say that you can't see the difference. Is the benefit for CG people and if so, what kind of difference does it make for them?

You need more bits to both capture and process greater dynamic range.
What you're referring to is display space which is analogous a negative capturing a greater dynamic range than a print with fewer stops.

 

[Shane Betts]

Debayer is more like 80% resolution at least with our camera and tools.

I can't speak for Arri's reasons but doing a 2880 to 1920 yields a convenient debayer that could be combined with a somewhat uniform 3:2 scale. However, it doesn't mean that you get a full 1920 resolution out. The zone plate from the Alexa showed around 1.7k.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=627850&postcount=1

What he said :tongue_smilie:

 

[Albert C Martin]

Red at the XGames:

Sick rig. Sorry to stray a little OT but can anyone tell me what lens that is?

 

[Devin Forbes]

But this is confusion on an extremely high level.

;-)

Jochen

Frankly, I'm surprised that anyone anywhere has the balls to insinuate that Roger Deakins, arguably the best cinematographer living, is ignorant to any aspect of image acquisition.


But anyway, there are key features of the Scarlet that I still have questions about, for Jim or anyone on the Red team:

1. The f or t stop of the 8X fixed lens, and the actual focal range (8x is pretty vague, and different numbers have been bouncing around this forum)
2. The latitude of the 2/3" Scarlet. I assume it is less than the Epic.
3. The size of the filter trays in the new Red Mattebox, and how many.
4. I feel like I saw an incomplete list at one point, but I have been unsuccessful in rediscovering anything that definitively states how many MB/s are being recorded at each Redcode setting, particularly Redcode 100.

Thanks!

 

[Peter Majtan]

Is there a reason for going as high as 16bit? Can the human eye even tell the difference between 10 and 12 bit? I've heard many engineers say that you can't see the difference. Is the benefit for CG people and if so, what kind of difference does it make for them?

To simplify the calculations and relations in DR stop increase - You need 1 bit for each stop of DR. So 12-bit will essentially limit You to 12-stop DR. MX sensor can apparently capture more then that, hence the need for more bits...

:thumbsup: Peter

 

[jonnycom]

But anyway, there are key features of the Scarlet that I still have questions about, for Jim or anyone on the Red team:

Thanks!

Welcome to our world.

 

[Victor Papalucas]

To simplify the calculations and relations in DR stop increase - You need 1 bit for each stop of DR. So 12-bit will essentially limit You to 12-stop DR. MX sensor can apparently capture more then that, hence the need for more bits...

:thumbsup: Peter

Is that for sure?