Considerations for Live Studio/Parallel and Epic...

[Albert C Martin]

I have been scouring the forums for the past few months trying to gather as much information as possible, but I thought it would be good to try and get some more relevant data in one spot.

I am a current RED One owner since about a year and a half ago. I am very familiar with the camera, the workflow, etc. Also have a stage 2 reservation for our first EPIC when it is ready.

We have broken ground and walls are being raised on our new state of the art facilities where we'll be working with both ENG as well as EFP/live studio/parallel.

Currently our consultants have recommended five Sony 720p/1080i cameras with full CCU rigs. However, I would like us to go full EPIC for numerous reasons. More resolution, future proofing our technology (upgrade paths), the ability to slap on a HDD and record a RAW ISO of each camera for special events/concerts, etc.

Our consultants haven't really heard of RED and they are pushing back from this because of lack of standard things such as CCU, Triax, Tally, Comm etc. I however think that the benefits outweigh the "standard" way of doing things and would require little or no workaround with a much better future-proofed end product.

I wanted to pose some questions to anyone here that may have more knowledge and expertise in this area.

Lenses
What types of lenses and lens mounts would be ideal for this setup? We'll be dealing with about 50% concert type environment (rock and roll, light show, etc.) and about 50% talking head (speaker on the stage) So we'll need good sharp zoom lenses that interface well with the RED.

CCU
I've read that EPIC will allow camera control and syncing in either a wireless or a wired network. Operators could perform their own iris shading, or any suggestions for remote shading?

Triax/Comm/Tally
The EPIC Pro I/O module can output 1080P or 2K through dual link HD-SDI. I've read that there is the ability to multiplex HD-SDI and a Comm signal through fiber. Tally would be as easy as a GPI contact closure. Am I missing anything here?

Anything else to consider?
Anything else I'm not thinking of? I'm by no means an expert in all this, I'll admit that readily. I'm trying to make sure I think through everything so I can sort of "hold hands" with our consultants and walk them through what we want in their language.

Thanks so much for any help!

 

[Thomas Koch]

I really hope there are Zoom and Focus devices other than the redmote pro so we can outfit our studio with 2/3" Scarlet Fixeds.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

First off, big props for looking at Epic for your installation. Better images, 5K iso records and longer useful lifespan - agreed. Specifics:

LENSES: If you have the budget I would get the 24-290mm Angenieux Optimo T2.8 Zooms with MicroForce zoom controllers for the fixed positions. For handheld the Angie DP 30-80mm is very nice. Ultimately RED, or someone else, will make a fully electronic lens for larger single sensor cameras like Epic and sell them like hotcakes - of course that's not much help at the moment.

CCU:
Based on what we have seen so far; the RedMote (perhaps with a wireless relay to insure signal transmission, presumably using off the shelf WiFi tech) should be able to do much of what a typical CCU does. I have always hungered for a fiber optic connection that would allow one to send the RedCode RAW itself back to master control where it could be debayered and shaded through some rack mounted unit with a RedRocket or two in it and DL SDI out to the switcher for applications such as yours but I have no idea if that is on RED's roadmap - sure would be sweet though :ihih:

Comm/Tally/Triax:
The "run it all over Triax" topology is popular for a reason; its robust and puts everything on one wire. Since you are doing a ground up installation I would run SDI over fiber for picture and comm on its own. If you have the budget I would get a quote from Telecast Fiber, they should be able to advise you on tally options as well.

If you are interested in further assistance I am available for consulting.

Cheers - #19

 

[Albert C Martin]

Blaire, thanks so much for your feedback! I appreciate it as I'm trying to work through all this.

One issue our consultants have brought up is whether or not the Pro I/O module supports 1080i output. I'm not sure the full specs have been released other than 1080P/2K dual link HD-SDI and Genlock. Their position being that most of the infrastructure they have in place doesn't support 1080P/3G as this would be (in their words) prohibitively expensive. Thoughts on this?

As far as lenses go, I seem to recall seeing the Angenieux lens at NAB this year and was pretty impressed with it. Forgive my lack of some knowledge in the technical area, but one thing I'm trying to wrap my brain around is the difference in zoom distance measuring and maybe you can give me some pointers.

For example, with our currently spec'd Sony cameras we are being recommended a couple Fujinon 50X and 22X zoom lenses. However, most of the lenses used on the RED, being cinema lenses, are measured in mm range instead of "X zoom" I know since the Sony studio cameras have a different sensor size, that the lens measurements are completely different on different sensor sizes even when the same lens is used.

So I guess my question is, how do I get an idea of how close a 24-290mm zoom lens on the RED is equal to a 50X studio lens on a Sony?

Thanks once again!

 

[Manuel Wenger]

The 50x is the zoom factor, in case of the angie 24-290 that would be a 12x (24 x 12 =290) you should take a look at the datasheets of the 50x or 22x lenses and have a look at the horiontal & vertical field of view, and compare it to the 12x angie that should give you a better idea of the usable range.

best regards
Manuel

 

[Paul Hazlett]

while i applaud your enthusiasm, doing ccu controlled studio live switches might
be easier with as your colleagues say, standards.

CCU's for instance do all the corrections needed for a camera with real knobs and are not menu driven so things can be done quickly.

I think you're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole here. Having worked in broaddcast for many years i can tell you that "making things work" can make your life miserable as opposed to installing equipment designed for your operation.

I am not trying to throw water on the fire here, just a little reality check. You might to visit a television studio, or broadcst production truck to get a real sense of how everything works together.

Maybe you could get an epic or scarlet for on in the field shooting to roll in the broadcasts?

 

[Albert C Martin]

while i applaud your enthusiasm, doing ccu controlled studio live switches might
be easier with as your colleagues say, standards.

CCU's for instance do all the corrections needed for a camera with real knobs and are not menu driven so things can be done quickly.

I think you're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole here. Having worked in broaddcast for many years i can tell you that "making things work" can make your life miserable as opposed to installing equipment designed for your operation.

I am not trying to throw water on the fire here, just a little reality check. You might to visit a television studio, or broadcst production truck to get a real sense of how everything works together.

Maybe you could get an epic or scarlet for on in the field shooting to roll in the broadcasts?

I appreciate your feedback Paul. Not throwing water on the fire at all; I appreciate hearing both sides of the argument. I definitely see your point about broadcast standards, and I think if we were working in a live TV environment/television studio I wouldn't even consider the RED option.

However, I think what we will be doing day to day is much better suited to thinking a little outside of the box if you will. Let me explain a couple areas for us specifically:

First off, our live production side only happens a couple days out of the week, not 24/7 like it would be in a television studio. As such, even in the worst case scenario where camera control happens through menus we can still dial in all the settings well before we need the cameras live. Would this be less convenient then full CCU control? Sure. Do I think this is what we'll be forced to deal with if we go RED? No. From what I have heard between the REDmote Pro and wireless upload/sync of camera settings I think it may be faster and easier than traditional CCU.

Camera control can happen through wifi/ethernet/redmote/serial.
Way more flexible and powerful than a CCU.

Second, we have situations where we'll have concerts or other live events happening in our space. With many of these events we'll have our live IMAG mix happening during the concert, but we'll also want to be able to afterwards edit an additional cut of the event for online, DVD or broadcast on TV. With this kind of circumstance in mind I'd love the flexibility of grabbing a RED MAG, slapping it on each camera, and having instant ISO shots of each camera in full RAW 5K. Sort of like Steve Gibby and Journey shooting RED as well as live switching (link). The EPIC combined with the Pro I/O module should be even easier to integrate than the RED One was with it's 720p limitation.

HDSDI and ethernet can be multiplexed over fiber.
And audio could be sent over ethernet. There's lots
of flexibility to add capability without designing new hardware.

Thirdly, our team is very familiar with RED as it is. We've had over a year to shoot and edit with the RED One so we've built our processes around it and have become very efficient with it. We're constantly learning and getting better with it too (I understand that a year is still pretty young for a RED user). Having the ability to standardize everything we use and shoot, all the way from a live in-house concert we're editing in post, to a more typical field production that RED is typically used for, would be huge for us. We'll have one workflow, one acquisition medium, one file format, as well as the huge flexibility that is RAW.

Bottom line, I think the way we'll be using our cameras may better lend itself to thinking a little out of the box. Sure, if we were a TV studio doing solely live broadcast there's no good reason to think RED. I think our needs though are far from simply a live broadcast camera.

Once again, I do appreciate your input as we consider this. If you have any thoughts on my comments above I'd welcome it.

Also, if anyone can point me to the Pro I/O module specs that have been talked about. I seem to remember it floating around here somewhere but can't locate it. Specifically I'm looking for whether it support single-link HD-SDI at 1080i and not just dual-link 3Gbps 1080P.

 

[Albert C Martin]

I have always hungered for a fiber optic connection that would allow one to send the RedCode RAW itself back to master control where it could be debayered and shaded through some rack mounted unit with a RedRocket or two in it and DL SDI out to the switcher for applications such as yours but I have no idea if that is on RED's roadmap - sure would be sweet though :ihih:

This is interesting, and I wonder what the future possibility would be for this. With the EPIC's modularity and RED's third party SDK's, even if RED themselves wouldn't be interested in this some third party might. It would basically be a more extensive Pro I/O module with dedicated controls that would modify the settings used in the real time debayering and coloring.

I think this could be a huge and yet to be fully realized feature in the EPIC cameras. Typically the next camera model comes out with a useful new feature or two that you may not be able to take advantage of because of the cost of upgrading. Now its as easy as adding on an extra module and everything still just works together.