Thoughts on micro-4/3? Was looking for a new point and shoot...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

OK, this may tread over the boundaries of other camera discussions for these forums, oh well. I'm a moderator too, shame on me. But I'm not discussing video abilities here as I have little to no interest in that function in these small cameras anyway. My use is 99% stills oriented. I will admittedly use the video functions for home movies and such.

Someone asked here the other day about a good point and shoot. I've been looking myself and have resigned the search for now to see what the Leica D-Lux 5 will bring, as well as the dumbed-down version of it from Panasonic; the DMC-LX5. All evidence seems to point to these cameras in september/october with announcements at Photokina.

However, in my search I have really taken a liking to the micro 4/3 format and have decided to take the plunge as I see some real size/weight advantages here and it fills the gap nicely between my current crappy P&S cameras and my "small" camera -- the Canon 7D.

So what do all of you think of the micro 4/3 format. Any interesting or useful tidbits of knowledge to share?

I played with a few models extensively and with the small selection of lenses on the market, it was easy to identify what glass I wanted. Choosing the camera body was not so easy. I eventually narrowed the selection to a choice between the Panasonic DMC-G2 and the Olympus E-PL1. In the end, I purchased the G2. Hopefully I've made the right choice... I could've walked away with the black one and had it right now, but I'm a sucker for flashy colors at times and I had my 5 year old son with me who insisted I get the blue one. So I did, and the store said they should have it for me to pick up tomorrow.

I am still second-guessing my decision though. I've read a number of reviews that claim the Olympus units have superior image quality, especially at ISO 800 and up, even compared to the new G2. The E-PL1 is awesome for the money and I almost went for it, in some ways I'm wishing I still did based on image quality comments I've read. It's hard to tell by comparing samples online and I only shot a limited number of stills in and around the camera store with the two for comparison. Honestly, the E-PL1 smokes the G2 when shooting JPEG. No contest. In fact, I don't think I have seen any camera that has this consistently high quality for JPEG output -- Better than anything my Canons or Nikons produce -- The D3 is probably still better just because the DR is so high, but I only shoot RAW with it, so it's hard to really compare. I was completely floored by the JPEG performance on the E-PL1.

Because I still prefer to shoot RAW whenever possible, I wasn't as swayed by the JPEG performance. JPEG on the Panasonic is pretty unimpressive. Harsh edges and artifacts are abundant, the colors are often way too punchy, especially in the red channel. But RAW looked pretty good, right on par with the E-PL1, with the exception of more noticeable pattern noise at ISO 800 and up. The camera goes to ISO 6400, which is totally useless on the G2, IMO. The E-PL1 goes to 3200 and that 3200 is mostly useable for small prints and online delivery in my quick tests.

That said, I still picked the G2 because it had an integrated EVF and superior interface and manual controls. It is also a much faster and more responsive camera. They are essentially the same size other than the EVF eyecup on the G2 and it has the grip handle protrusion, which I liked. Everyone complains about the video record button on the E-PL1 and I can see why, I was bumping it accidentally just carrying the camera around the store. So I guess we'll see how it works out. Additionally, the G2 has a faster shutter option (1/4000 vs. 1/2000), faster burst mode with more exposures possible in RAW... This was the biggest deal-breaker for the E-PL1. The sequential performance. Nowhere near as fast as claimed in RAW mode, even when testing with the fastest SDHC cards I have (Lexar and SanDisk Class 10). The two are essentially the same size, the G2 weighs a bit more than the E-PL1.

It comes with the Panny 14-42 kit lens. I also picked up the Panny 45-200 and the 20mm pancake. I may also get one of the wider zooms -- I loved the Panny 7-14, but thought it was a bit large and heavy and expensive. For $350 less there's the Olympus 9-18, which is less than half the weight and about half the size when locked for transport. Both of the wides have some pretty awful CA to deal with and the 7-14 has noticeable distortion when wider than 9mm, so I'm not really sure if it's worth the extra money.

I love the 20mm pancake and being a 40mm FF35 equivalent, I can leave it on the camera a lot. It's pocketable in a decent coat pocket with this lens on it. The E-PL1 with the 20mm Pancake and/or the 17mm Olympus Pancake can almost pass as a mostly-pocketable point and shoot -- essentially the same size as the Canon G9/10/11. On the G2, the EVF and grip don't really take up more volume, but do seem like they may make pocket storage a bit more cumbersome.

Not sure if anyone is going to read through all this. I was mostly just clearing my head of all the thoughts I had.

 

[hunterrichards]

I love my gh1 with the 20mm pancake, I find my self taking it everywhere with me- which is why I think m43 exists. Enjoy your new camera!

 

[Henk van den Doel]

I recently got myself a G1 for the private photo collection, fantastic camera. I was also looking at the EP Olympus series at first. But the Evf on the G1 closed the deal for me, and I'm glad I chose the Panasonic. I just couldn't see myself holding the camera 40 cm away from my face when taking photos. Especially using my old OM lenses in manual mode.

What still amazes me every time I use it is the kitlens that came with it. Nice piece of gear indeed.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Jeff,

the Olympus PEN has a stabilized sensor while the others need fort this function the stabilizer in the lens. That means that you benefit from a stabilizer while using great vintage glass such as Contax, Leica.... Olympus glass is very good, BTW - at least the pro-line.

Maybe you bought the wrong one...

Hans

PS: Micro 4/3 is a great standard for small, yet good cameras.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

OK, I've got the camera now and have been playing with it for about the last hour or so... Overall, I really like it. I don't understand the proprietary connector and USB cable though. Why?

I snapped some more appropriate shots here. Overall, I'm not that impressed with performance below ISO 200 or above ISO 800. Going to do some more tests though. I've only just begun to explore this thing and just loading images quickly into ACR.

Henk, I felt the same way. Ultimately what sold me the Panasonic over the Olympus was its speed and controls. The integrated EVF is great too. The add-on EVF for the Olympus is another $250 and just one more piece of kit to deal with, this also made the E-PL1 and DMC-G2 essentially the same price. I played with the E-PL1 again while picking up the G2. And now reflecting back on that having spent a full hour at home with the G2, the only reason I would consider the E-PL1 now is if the image quality is noticeably better. And the only reason I'm going to give up the G2 at this point is if the image quality doesn't meet my expectations. I should know for sure in a couple days.

Hans, fair enough on the image stabilization. I did consider that as a factor on the Olympus. I agree with you about Olympus glass. Even in the micro 4/3 format, the Olympus lens offerings are performing very, very well. Between the older Panny 14-45, the new Panny 14-42 and the Olympus 14-42, I actually preferred the Olympus lens. And would have gone with it, but I saw no reason since buying the G2 body alone only saved me $35 and was special order. I wish Panasonic would offer the G2 in a kit with the 20mm pancake as they do with the GF1. Perhaps they may in the future, just not now.

I am still on the fence as to whether I bought the "right" camera or not. I guess that will reveal itself as I put the G2 through its paces. I didn't get my pancake lens though... Warehouse downtown didn't have it and they had to ship it in from somewhere else, so I get it on my doorstep monday. But checking online, it's out of stock at a lot of places. B&H has it for $371 w/free shipping... I'm paying $388 after tax w/free shipping, so close enough.

I'm going to put the G2 through its paces. If I feel it doesn't live up to my expectations, I'll give the E-PL1 a try, but outside of potential image quality advantages there (which should be very slight and mostly at higher ISOs or shooting JPEG), I see more physical disadvantages with the E-PL1's controls and speed.

The one thing that does bother me about the micro 4/3 lenses is many have plastic mounts. I understand trying to cut costs, but I can't believe that a plastic mount is enough cheaper than aluminum to really justify it.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Jeff,

the Olympus PEN has a stabilized sensor while the others need fort this function the stabilizer in the lens.

Olympus PEN has crap noise issues.


NEX-5 seems pretty cool for the size. Smokes PEN in picture quality and you'll be able to put Nikon glass on it.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Olympus PEN has crap noise issues.

...So does the Panny G2 I now own. To put it bluntly, the pattern noise, sensitivity and range is on par with my Nikon D2Xs. Sure it's an APS-C SLR and was their flagship camera about 4 years ago, but compared to current SLR systems, this G2 is a mixed bag. I love the size, weight, operation, etc.. I love everything about it except the noise handling and DR. But I knew that going into it I guess. Everyone I talked to, every review I read, said that the micro 4/3 cameras right now just are not up to the performance of larger SLRs. The sensor and noise is definitely a step up from my Canon G9. It's real similar to the Canon G11, which I returned because it was just too sluggish and they made terrible choice of downgrading the lens from what's on my G9.

I snapped some more pictures with the demo E-PL1 when I was there picking up the G2. After reviewing them some more. I can say with confidence that the Olympus is noticeably better at ISO 800. It's about the same at ISO 1600 and a bit worse at ISO 3200 vs. the Panny G2. I think the Olympus has more pleasing noise though as there's less of a pattern to it compared to the G2. But as of right now, I prefer how the G2 operates. I'm trying not to be negative here. I really like the camera as a whole unit. If I'm going to be that much of a stickler over the quality, then I may as well just lug my D3 everywhere I go.

NEX-5 seems pretty cool for the size. Smokes PEN in picture quality and you'll be able to put Nikon glass on it.

I looked at the NEX-5. Great low-light performance and nice compact size. I wasn't wild about the controls or buying E-Mount lenses, or anything with a Sony label on it to tell the truth. But if I were going to go for another APS-C camera, I would do the Canon T2i (550D). It has superior noise handling and image quality vs. the Sony, IMO. Canon's superior RAW format (or at least it seems that way) and I can use all the lenses I already own for my Canon gear. I looked at the T2i as it's a bit smaller than my 7D, but I don't need another Canon/Nikkor SLR. I dove into the micro 4/3 as I really like the whole package of smaller camera combined with smaller lenses. The Panny G2 (or Olympus) with a 14-140 zoom weighs significantly less than my Canon EFS 15-85 zoom alone and that's a compact walk-about lens if there ever was one for APS-C DSLRs.

I've learned it's really hard to gauge image quality for these micro 4/3 cameras on the market just from online reviews. It seems most any pro or semi pro photographer who posts good images from these cameras will run the images through some post processing with NeatImage or Noise Ninja and then down-scale for showing on the web. Not a very good way to objectively view anything. Or we get thumbnail-sized 100% crops in overly compressed JPEG format to compare noise samples, as if that's going to tell us much. I will still say the JPEG output from the E-PL1 is amazing -- it even does a good job of noise removal for JPEG output in camera. Still like the Panny G2 better for the camera itself.

I'm going to use the G2 exclusively for the week. By next wednesday night, if I still really like it, it's a keeper.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

played with the G2 all last night and all today.

Love the camera and format.

Hate the image "quality". I may just return it. Talked to my guy at the shop where I bought it. He's pushing me to test drive the NEX-5 and says he'll have one for me to demo early next week. Told me that about 1 out of every 3 "pro photogs" who give the m4/3 cams a chance return them saying they love the system, but hate the noise and lack of DR. And that's exactly where I'm at. The noise is nasty, but it's the overall DR that is killing the G2 for me.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I took it all back... Gave up on the micro 4/3 cameras. Image quality was just not there. Too bad, because I really liked the cameras and the sensor size/format. But when the latest G2 from Panasonic performs WORSE at ISO 640 than their own 2-year-old DMC-LX3 P&S, then that just sucks.

I started to write a lengthy description of everything, essentially a full-on review. But what's the point. The only thing I have to say different than any of the other reviews online is that I think most reviewers are being far too kind in regards to the image quality. But how often do you ever see a product review that comes right out and says "OMG, this sucks hairy balls!!!" If they did that, Panasonic would never supply review product ever again.

Oh, and my 45-200 zoom decided to break. But what do you expect for $280 for a zoom with that kind of range? It decided to stop working with AF and only make a chirping noise without actually focusing. Meh... At least it didn't have a plastic mount on it like the kit lens or the Minolta lenses. ...Plastic mounts, WTF??? All in, I had just shy of $1500 invested in the DMC-G2, extra battery, kit lens, plus the 45-200 and 20mm pancake. I expected much more for a camera with an $800 entry price tag.

I picked up a Sony NEX-5 when I took this system back today. Have about 2 hours invested in it after installing the latest firmware. Image quality is very good so far. I love that the camera defaults to using very little sharpening and colors are good right out of the camera for both JPEG and RAW. Hopefully we'll get ACR support for the camera soon, I don't really like Sony's bundled software. ISO 6400 out of the NEX-5 has comparable per-pixel detail to the DMC-G2 at ISO 400, but without the obvious pattern in the noise and without loss of shadow detail or inexcusable shadow noise. Showing noticeably more DR... The DR on the DMC-G2 was inexcusably bad. It was just as bad, if not worse, than my ~3 year old PowerShot G9, which was under $400. The G9 P&S camera actually takes superior pictures compared to the G2 in nearly every situation I tested. It was appalling.

I can't believe I bought a Sony product and I'm liking it... The NEX-5 is really good. Build quality is outstanding and that goes for both the camera itself and the polished-aluminum kit lens.

Three complaints at this time about it, but none are deal-breakers.

1> No control port -- only has an IR receiver.
2> Soft buttons need to be programmable. The lower only lets me access "shooting tips", so they designed it for dummies. Simple firmware update can fix this. Every review I've read says the same thing.
3> No hot shoe. It uses Sony's proprietary "smart accessory port". Meh...

I'd love it to have an EVF, but after using the awesome LCD on this thing out in the sun a bit, I have to say I'm impressed. I kept trying to hold it up to my face out of habit, though.

 

[Matthias Hutter]

Glad you like it ... i kinda feel the same way.
I also like the image quality and built, but cannot get used to the controll and lack of EVF.
And the current lack of a small ~40mm 35mm eq. prime lens is holding me back too.
I'm in no hurry though and lurk for any news while using my 450D.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm finding the lack of EVF to not really be an issue as the LCD is very nice and [mostly] works in sunlight. But it is an issue in that I'm used to having a viewfinder. Thankfully, few P&S cameras have a viewfinder that actually represents the FOV, so I've learned to not rely on a VF for small cameras. But it's still habit to try and put it to my face when holding my hand under the lens...

I'm finding the menu easy and quick to navigate with the exception of hanving to go 2-layers in to switch ISO. The M mode lets me easily select shutter and aperture, but I have to go to the menu for ISO. WTF, Sony?

I have a hatred of the bottom soft button. Which I'm noticing is now being referred to as the "retard" or "dumbass" button on many forums now. I really wish that we could assign it to have a specific function. But no, all it does is let us read some lame shooting tips. WTF, Sony?

I disagree with a lot of the reviews that claim the camera needs more buttons or controls. What it needs is to simply use what is already there. If we could user-program all the buttons on the rear, this would be one of the most awesome cameras ever. Both soft buttons should be assignable to have both a single-click and double-click function.

Aside from that, I'm still really liking the camera overall. Definitely needs more lens options. But I've ordered a Nikon mount adapter for it so I can use all my F1.4 and F2.8 AIS primes. I got the mount adapter with aperture control so I can also use my newer 105mm macro.

I'm confident that Sony will improve the menu and button functions. They seem committed to improving the NEX series and still have a few functions that are not enabled. All things considered, I think this camera is probably the best bang for the buck out there right now for compact SLR-type cameras.