alexa v mx

[Mike Gross]

Went to the SIM event today and heard Michael Bravin and co. talk. Saw some pretty incredible low light footage - looked cleaner than RED to me. The form factor appears better and the build seems more solid.

Kept hearing that "Red is 10.5 stops and Alexa is 13.5" - so really want to get a test happening with the Dynamic Range Test Chart to get to the bottom of that one.

I have to say - today was the first time I felt like jumping the RED ship...

Red still has a price advantage and REDCODE.

Are they comparing to the old camera?
There have been a few tests now that pegged MX at 13+ stops.

 

[Jannard]

Sounds like Bravin marketing is going strong. I'd wait for the real tests results to be posted before jumping ship. We have seen and tested an Alexa and don't feel the least bit threatened. Actually... the other way around.

Jim

 

[Mark Pugh]

Jim have you considered selling Red Ones with MX included (for a price higher than 17,500)?
That would make claims like the one above pretty hard to justify. Currently Arri can claim better performance than an off-the-shelf R1.... not that you're worried...

 

[Brigham Edgar]

Went to the SIM event today and heard Michael Bravin and co. talk. Saw some pretty incredible low light footage - looked cleaner than RED to me. The form factor appears better and the build seems more solid.

Kept hearing that "Red is 10.5 stops and Alexa is 13.5" - so really want to get a test happening with the Dynamic Range Test Chart to get to the bottom of that one.

I have to say - today was the first time I felt like jumping the RED ship...

Red still has a price advantage and REDCODE.

Think they must have been referring to the M sensor and not MX. 10.5 stops and a lot noiser...that has M written all over it...definitly not MX. Good marketing though as not enough people will know enough about the new MX sensor yet.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

One is made in Germany, under EU employment law, one isn't...

More likely that one will be mass produced and one will sell a few thousand.

That's a lot of investment in R&D for a camera with what will probably be a smaller production run.

Are you talking about the BSC shoot out? The RED files were not correctly processed according to those I have spoken with.

Until very recently the problem I had with REDCine was that it was easy to to incorrectly process the footage but difficult to correctly process. There were a lot of 'gotchas' where clipping would occur through default settings. There should have been an 'idiot mode' in REDCINE from the start where you could get a linear or LOG white balanced image with your whites and your blacks protected.

The next step imo for RED is to compete with film on the subjective image. When I look at a raw film scan I get a really sexy image automatically thanks to the work by Kodak on not just the technical response of their film but also the aesthetic. I would love to see RED work towards the same--or even better blatantly rip off popular film stock response curves.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Went to the SIM event today and heard Michael Bravin and co. talk. Saw some pretty incredible low light footage - looked cleaner than RED to me. The form factor appears better and the build seems more solid.

Kept hearing that "Red is 10.5 stops and Alexa is 13.5" - so really want to get a test happening with the Dynamic Range Test Chart to get to the bottom of that one.

I have to say - today was the first time I felt like jumping the RED ship...

Red still has a price advantage and REDCODE.

Now it's a time that I jump here again.

Don't forget that "Michael Bravin and co." are just like every car resellers and of course that he/they cleaned and polished that car before they try out to sell you.

Saw some pretty incredible low light footage - looked cleaner than RED to me.

I haven't seen Alexa footage screened or even on a monitor at its native size of HD or 2K.

But I saw web footgae at the size of 1248 pixel wide compressed at h264.

So let me now compare a similar examples what I have got from both MX and Alexa:

1248 pixel wide compressed at h264 from Alexa and MX footage what I shot with R1-MX and

Leica Apo-Summicron-M 75mm f/2.0 @ wide open f/2.0, ISO 800, 25fps, shutter1/50, WB in RCX, no grade or any color correction applied.

Here we go:

Taken from World Cup Alexa footage.

Taken from MX footage resized @ 1248px to match Alexa web wide size of the footage.

A proof crop image from RCX shows that no any grade was applied.

Also don't forget that Alexa footage was lighted with Arri Light and that MX was shot at available light (a street vapor lights and car lights).

Download 4.5K MX screen JPG grab to play with it by your own>>>>

To conclude is to say that Alexa has not cleaner image out of the box more than R1-MX,

but could have more cleaner image for those Alexa presentations after Arri's pipeline image processing (relativity, etc,..) was applied,

(already I "warned" RED about so called "spitting stock" effects with Alexa due to Arri's years long experience with DI processing and also now acquiring of Relativity software...)

ARRI Relativity™software is powered by Pixel Strings™, the first engine to harness the potential of GPU-based parallel processing
for motion estimation and spatial-temporal image filtering. In its most comprehensive version, the entire Relativity™ software bundle
is currently comprised of four different applications: Texture Control, Film Simulation, Clean SP and SpaceTime Converter.

Features

Texture Control
Control the level of film grain and digital noise, mix and match the textures of 16mm, 35mm and digital images, for a particular effect or visual continuity.
Reduce grain or noise prior to compression for Blu-Ray and DVD authoring or any cable/satellite/IPTV distribution while retaining picture detail.
Produce impressive theatrical quality images from Super 16mm or 2-perf 35mm.
With the optional Film Simulation module, make grain an aesthetic choice by adding a pleasing texture to the finished product. .

Film Simulation
Add natural looking film grain to digitally captured images or CGI. Or add the subtle grain of 35mm film to 16mm origination that has been de-grained via Texture Control.


LINK>>>

About DR it have to be done a professional side by side test but definitely not something like a Geoff Boyle's CML tests.

R1-MX probably has more solid and rugged body than Alexa just because it's build like an armored car that Alexa for sure it is not.

Everybody who used R1 knows that fact pretty good.

Also to say that just because of all that and price tag I'm not jumping in Alexa waters any time soon.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

We have seen and tested an Alexa and don't feel the least bit threatened. Actually... the other way around.

Jim

Re-read this post ... three times .... slowly.

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

Well I personally think its great that Arri comes with a strong competitor.

Remember how far the world got in the "space race" in the 60´ies because of strong competition.

It is my impression that Mr. Jannard is a man who likes to win... so it will be very interesting to see the final specs of both systems

So what ever happens, it will be great for all of us, giving us the hardware of our dreams and beyond! - that is, as long as Arri or RED don´t go "belly up" because of their arms race

 

[David Battistella]

I was at that event at SIM yesterday too. The footage shown was impressive, but I would expect that from anyone in the game. To me it was more of like a right brain left brain thing. It's the overall approach that is interesting.

The ALEXA is moving to work with existing tape based workflows capturing to decks in LOG C to give a wide latitude, low noise image (1920x1080RGB) to grade with (I suspect EPIC will definitely compete at this).

The SxS card TV, MOW workflow was not shown at full prores 4444 quality so I can't say much about that.

The out of the box for factor of ALEXA is good. The camera shoulders well and is a smaller body than I had imagined. Everything is well thought out from a design/user/tactile feel perspective. Little things like having to hold the power button down for three seconds to turn the camera off seems like nothing, but it's good design. The cooling system was impressive too.

Recording uncompressed RAW in any kind of practical way (outside a studio setup or with a small crew) is not going to be a way many (any) productions go.

RED ONE M-X is the competitive product to ALEXA (I think EPIC will take things to a new level).

4K over 2K but limited to 720P out means you never really are theathered, which to me is a very restricted way of filming.
CF card recording over specialized media or expensive decks.
REDCODE makes the whole system more transportable and smarter.
Form factor is customizable.

SIM did a great job hosting the event and Chris did an excellent presentation, they had a RED ONE up and running too and it was nice to go between the cameras side by side.

As for all the tooing and froing on the boards. Michael works for Arri now and his job is to market the Alexa and describe it's features to the open market. I think that RED has done an amazing thing and is driving much of the technology we are seeing.

I can credit RED with making sure everyone wakes up when it comes to digital cinema imaging. There is plenty of room and just like there will always be people who can not make an edit on anything other than an AVID, there are people that will only want to film with ARRI products. This is the beauty of competition. The customers win, and it gives everyone a reason to get up in the morning.


Peace.
David

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

All this things with Alexa slowly moving to sort of SLAPSTICK COMEDY where just ARRI fooling its brand:

Let's start with the recording options and media for both:

RETRO-GARDE recording options = ALEXA.

AVANT-GARDE recording options and media = RED 1 MX:

RED1 CF module.

16GB CF card.

RED Drive 640GB.

RED RAM 128 GB SSD.

The price difference between R1-MX base (body+EVF+CF module) and Alexa+ EVF +SxS 422 ProRes module (4444 still not working):

You can buy a brand new BMW X6 or entry ALEXA camera system for the same price.

That means 3x R1-MX = 1 Alexa entry system.

Metallic RED BMW X6.

 

[Thomas Wright]

The extra money is for the rosette on the side, otherwise it's the same camera.

Seriously, you got to admit, the Germans engineer things better than the Americans. My Red works wonderfully, lovely images. Blow you away. But, the top mounts don't quite line up exactly. Not a problem, doesn't affect my image, with a bit of a wiggle I got them on. That never happens with an Arri camera.

I'd still go for Sanjin's package with the Beemer though.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Did you see the multi camera shoot outs fom last year?

Read about them.

Going to answer the question?

-sc

 

[I Bloom]

To conclude is to say that Alexa has not cleaner image out of the box more than R1-MX,

Sanjin,

I think you are probably right but it's not a good test. It looks like possibly a little more being pulled from the blacks on the first image. But who can tell, since we don't have much information about the Alexa footage or how it was processed. And frankly the Alexa footage is better composed, better lit and got a free wet down to boot.
So you may be right but I think you should wait until you can do a better test between two shots of the same scene, with similar post, before we make any "conclusions".

Much love,

IBloom

 

[Steven Caesare]

Yes. That's probably correct, however it was not only the BSC tests that had the problem. Red had the opportunity to re-process the footage, nothing happened.
I have always been impressed by digital projection of Red footage & much less so by film projected footage.

So you equate Red not conducting/correcting somebody else's errant test with "not acknowledging the world watches productions on film"?

Especially when Jim has stated multiple times that their goal is "to do film justice"?

-sc

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Cleaner than MX?

It "felt" like it. But this was a marketing presentation - so difficult to tell until I can do my own tests.

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Yes. That's probably correct, however it was not only the BSC tests that had the problem. Red had the opportunity to re-process the footage, nothing happened.
I have always been impressed by digital projection of Red footage & much less so by film projected footage.

If you are ever this way - let me know and I'll show you my test print. Even with the old Build - looks fantastic projected on film.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Sanjin,

I think you are probably right but it's not a good test. It looks like possibly a little more being pulled from the blacks on the first image. But who can tell, since we don't have much information about the Alexa footage or how it was processed. And frankly the Alexa footage is better composed, better lit and got a free wet down to boot.
So you may be right but I think you should wait until you can do a better test between two shots of the same scene, with similar post, before we make any "conclusions".

Much love,

IBloom

Some of us will eventually be shooting the same tests with the same glass and light in parallell, and we will eventually know which cam works which way...

Untill such tests are done, it's easy. MX is generally available, excellent and aout of beta. Alexa is still in a beta stage.

I wouldn't be too sure about 4444 working or not. And if it doesn't it probably soon will.

I wouldn't judge a raw cam from an h.264 whatever I expect to see from the camera in daily production...

I would be intersted in the log images, though...

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Sounds like Bravin marketing is going strong. I'd wait for the real tests results to be posted before jumping ship. We have seen and tested an Alexa and don't feel the least bit threatened. Actually... the other way around.

Jim

Like I said - This was me reacting to a marketing presentation and watching footage that they shot.

Can't wait to get my hands on a DRTC to test these two cameras!

 

[Stephen Williams]

So you equate Red not conducting/correcting somebody else's errant test with "not acknowledging the world watches productions on film"?

Especially when Jim has stated multiple times that their goal is "to do film justice"?

-sc

IIRC Red tried to correct the footage, had the results been worth showing the world I am sure they would have been released. Being so easy to make a mistake in processing for a film finish is what my opinion is based on. RED is revolutionary & film is old school, so it's hardly surprising to me.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Like I said - This was me reacting to a marketing presentation and watching footage that they shot.

Can't wait to get my hands on a DRTC to test these two cameras!

How did the rolling shutter look?