"Biggest" DOF w/RED1, Scarlet, GH1, Canon ??

[George D.]

I have a hypothetical question I'd like to throw out there and see what your opinions are. Just humor me and give me your advise and expertise in this area.

IF all these cameras, the RED-One, the Scarlet, the upcoming Panasonic AF100, and the Canon 5D Mark II, used EXACTLY THE SAME size/portion of the sensor, which one would produce the BEST quality image with the "biggest" Dept Of Field? Not the shallowest DOF, the "deepest".

In other words, if the larger sensors were cropped down to match those cameras with smaller sensors, so all sensor sizes were EQUAL, which of these cameras would produce the highest quality video with the WIDEST depth of field, and give the kind of quality usable for HD television production?

Everyone on these forums seems VERY concerned about getting a camera that will give them the shallowest DOF possible, but I'm interested in exactly the opposite. I want the deepest DOF I can get with the best quality 1080p HD video. The kind of specialty work we do requires it.

Thanks.

PS - Sorry, in the heading I "meant" Panasonic AF100, not the GH1.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Your looking for a 2/3" sensor. So Scarlet or something like a Sony PDW-F800.
However any sensor can give deep DOF when stepped down.

 

[Scott Crawley]

However any sensor can give deep DOF when stepped down.

That is why there is so much interest in shallow DOF. Any system can give you deep DOF. The opposite is not true, (In practical terms.) so to get a complete tool you need to find one that can give you both.

 

[David Rasberry]

DOF is strictly a function of the lens. Focal length(magnification), object distance, aperture. Smaller sensor area means you shoot with a shorter focal length lens to get the same field of view and shorter lenses give you greater depth of field at the same aperture settings.
2/3" /16mm sized sensor is so popular for general video production because it gives a nice range of DOF flexibility with enough depth in dynamic shooting situations to make focus less critical than with the longer lenses needed for larger formats.

 

[Michael Olsen]

IF all these cameras, the RED-One, the Scarlet, the Panasonic GH1, and the Canon 5D Mark II, used EXACTLY THE SAME size/portion of the sensor, which one would produce the BEST quality image with the "biggest" Dept Of Field? Not the shallowest DOF, the "deepest".

If sensor size were equal and the lens used was the same, the only thing that would matter is the quality of the acquisition. ~4K bayer, ~3K bayer, pixel binning, line skipping...go with RED.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

If they all used the same sensor size and thus the same focal length lens for the same field of view, and were all shot at the same f-stop and at the same distance, then they would all be similar in terms of depth of field. At that point, you could argue that whichever had the softest image probably had the least critical focus and thus had a "deeper" depth of field but mathematically, they'd all be the same.

Since out of that list, the Scarlet 2/3" has the smallest sensor and every other camera would have to be cropped to match it, odds are high that the Scarlet would deliver the best-looking picture. The worst would be cropping a 1080P Canon 5D video recording in post to match the field of view of a 2/3" sensor area, that would end up worse than NTSC resolution. There is no way for the Canon to internally crop the sensor before conversion to 1080P, so you'd be doing it in post, and that's a 36x24mm sensor area you are talking about cropping to about 10mm in width, so you'd be only using less than 1/3 of the recorded 1080P image.

This seems a bit like a pointless question because no one would shoot a Canon 5D in video mode in this way, only wanting to use a 10mm width of the 36mm-wide sensor.

This question would only make sense if all cameras offered a RAW recording mode. At least, then you'd mainly be talking about issues from using a smaller area of the sensor, not issues from cropping a highly compressed HD video recording in the case of some of these cameras.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I have a hypothetical question I'd like to throw out there and see what your opinions are. Just humor me and give me your advise and expertise in this area.

IF all these cameras, the RED-One, the Scarlet, the Panasonic GH1, and the Canon 5D Mark II, used EXACTLY THE SAME size/portion of the sensor, which one would produce the BEST quality image with the "biggest" Dept Of Field? Not the shallowest DOF, the "deepest".

In other words, if the larger sensors were cropped down to match those cameras with smaller sensors, so all sensor sizes were EQUAL, which of these cameras would produce the highest quality video with the WIDEST depth of field, and give the kind of quality usable for HD television production?

Everyone on these forums seems VERY concerned about getting a camera that will give them the shallowest DOF possible, but I'm interested in exactly the opposite. I want the deepest DOF I can get with the best quality 1080p HD video. The kind of specialty work we do requires it.

Thanks.

The camera you are looking for is called the Panasonic HPX-370. I call it the camera the HPX-300 should have been.

Its a great 1080p camera with 1/3" CMOS chips. It shoots 10 bit 4:2:2 video to an MPEG-4 codec in camera on P2 Media. Its available right now, and its fairly affordable at less than $10000 USD.

I believe that its the best deep DoF 1080p camera available at any price right now. The only drawback from my perspective is the recording media and processor power required for the codec. You may be well advised to get a NanoFlash or AJA KiPro to go with the camera if you need to edit quickly or turn in top notch composites. (Also, what you save on P2 cards could finance the purchase of either unit and media for them. You only need P2 for variable speed recording.)

After that I'd take a good look at the Canon XF series cameras for your application. They offer 4:2:2 recording... although I think its 8 bit. They also use 1/3" sensors. I haven't seen or tested the image quality- but its Canon so I expect its close in quality to its competing Sony/Panasonic products.

After these cameras, I'd look at the Sony XDCAM EX series, which offer a top notch 1/2" 1080p sensor. I'd use a device like the AJA KiPro or Convergent Designs NanoFlash with these cameras.

You can get deeper DoF than any of these cameras offer with consumer HD cams, but I believe you start to compromise image quality too greatly.

 

[George D.]

If they all used the same sensor size and thus the same focal length lens for the same field of view, and were all shot at the same f-stop and at the same distance, then they would all be similar in terms of depth of field. At that point, you could argue that whichever had the softest image probably had the least critical focus and thus had a "deeper" depth of field but mathematically, they'd all be the same.

Since out of that list, the Scarlet 2/3" has the smallest sensor and every other camera would have to be cropped to match it, odds are high that the Scarlet would deliver the best-looking picture. The worst would be cropping a 1080P Canon 5D video recording in post to match the field of view of a 2/3" sensor area, that would end up worse than NTSC resolution. There is no way for the Canon to internally crop the sensor before conversion to 1080P, so you'd be doing it in post, and that's a 36x24mm sensor area you are talking about cropping to about 10mm in width, so you'd be only using less than 1/3 of the recorded 1080P image.

This seems a bit like a pointless question because no one would shoot a Canon 5D in video mode in this way, only wanting to use a 10mm width of the 36mm-wide sensor.

This question would only make sense if all cameras offered a RAW recording mode. At least, then you'd mainly be talking about issues from using a smaller area of the sensor, not issues from cropping a highly compressed HD video recording in the case of some of these cameras.

I'm sorry, but everyone seems to be missing the point, except maybe for David who is close. And, there is no such thing as a "pointless" question. We all learn through asking questions. That has always been how man progresses. And, I said it was "hypothetical".

The point is NOT which camera to use, or if it would be a good idea to crop a DSLR image, or if it's practical to change something, etc, etc. The point IS; which one of these would produce the highest quality image WITH ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL while capturing the video? I believe it would be the RED-One.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Personally, I think David Mullen is an awfully nice guy to take his time to answer questions like these. :thumbsup:

 

[James Burton]

Thanks for the question, George ( I hope you ask a few more ) and thank you David for yet another great answer. I agree with you Terry about David. Like many here, if he printed a book on this stuff, I would be one of the first to get a copy. This new fast changing digital media means there is lots to learn for many of us. For me, there can't really be an answer without someone first asking a question. I learn so much by both the range of questions asked on this forum and the wonderful and well thought out answers by patient kind experts like David. I can't thank you all too much.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

I would say that you should just look at 2/3" cams as cropping on the red one or others cam's doesn't makes sense or work. I would say the 2/3" scarlet but as others have said you can achieve a large DOF as long as you have enough light, though indoors (but how deep do you really need an indoor shot) might require a large amount of lights to achieve deep focus and end up turning your set into a packed sauna.

the thing is two of the camera's you mentioned do not exist so no one can tell what would look like what, the 5d as Mr Mullen said should not be cropped, so for now that leaves the red one. More realistically you should look at 2/3" broadcast camera's that are available now, perhaps an iconoscope(sp) or a si2k.

good luck and happy filming.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Thanks for the question, George ( I hope you ask a few more ) and thank you David for yet another great answer. I agree with you Terry about David. Like many here, if he printed a book on this stuff, I would be one of the first to get a copy. This new fast changing digital media means there is lots to learn for many of us. For me, there can't really be an answer without someone first asking a question. I learn so much by both the range of questions asked on this forum and the wonderful and well thought out answers by patient kind experts like David. I can't thank you all too much.

I would gladly pay $100 for that book, maybe more (hint)

 

[Joel Kaye]

\The point IS; which one of these would produce the highest quality image WITH ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL while capturing the video? I believe it would be the RED-One.

Tough to know without test. In theory the camera with the most pixels crammed into the final sensor size would probably look sharpest.

As David says, DOF should be about the same so that's irrelevant.

I don't believe 2k RED looks as good as 1080P EX1. 2K RED is pretty soft... so I'm kinda skeptical it would win a cropped test vs. a Sony for instance. But I don't know. Lenses may play a key role in a comparison like this.

I'd probably put my money on 2/3" Scarlet. 3K at 2/3" I believe. But if you're talking about a 1/3" sensor size for deeper DOF it might be another camera.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I'm sorry, but everyone seems to be missing the point, except maybe for David who is close. And, there is no such thing as a "pointless" question. We all learn through asking questions. That has always been how man progresses. And, I said it was "hypothetical".

The point is NOT which camera to use, or if it would be a good idea to crop a DSLR image, or if it's practical to change something, etc, etc. The point IS; which one of these would produce the highest quality image WITH ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL while capturing the video? I believe it would be the RED-One.

That's like asking that if we ignore how these cameras actually capture and record an image... which camera captures and records a better image? You can't separate the real-world problems of how these cameras work and create some hypothetical situation that cannot ever exist and then ask for some sort of definitive answer about image characteristics.

I mean, exactly HOW were you planning on getting a 2/3" image area off of the Canon FF35 sensor after all? Your hypothetical question requires that somehow we can capture only the 2/3" area of the sensor for recording at its theoretical highest resolution, which would be RAW... basically similar to how the Red One can crop its sensor to a 2K area and record that as RAW. Since the Canon can't do that, what's the point of the question? Is this a hypothetical Canon 5D or the real Canon 5D? If this is an imaginary Canon that allows sensor cropping and RAW recording, then why call it a 5D?

I'm all for hypothetical questions that have some sort of logical basis, apples to apples sort of comparisons... but this one is a bit random in terms of its parameters, making any conclusions practically useless.

The DOF part of your question can be answered, and has been (they'd all be similar if using the same size target area, same lens, etc.), but the "what gives the highest quality video" part cannot be answered because that gets into real-world performance issues.