Can I use an *internal* LTO4 tape drive?

[Matt Pope]

First post, take it easy on me!

After reading through some great threads here that convinced me to ditch my external hard drive archive solution for a LTO-4 tape based solution, I ran off and purchased an HP Ultrium 1840 tape drive. Only today it showed up and I realized that it was an internal drive, not external. I had no idea until I opened the box that there even was such a thing as an internal version. It was purchased new, but from an ebay seller. I'm hoping for an option to exchange/return, but not holding my breath right now. It also doesn't look like there's a very thriving aftermarket for these things, so before I go try to turn around and re-sell it on ebay, I'm looking for any possible way I could still use it myself.

So far I haven't found any nice little enclosures or anything of that nature, and I'm wondering if I'm going down a dead end path. Does anyone know of a good way that I could make use of this drive, or do I just need to suck it up and sell it for whatever loss I have to and go with the external?

(FWIW, I'm comfortable building computers myself, a bit less comfortable with Linux though I'm sure I could fumble my way through that as well. But I don't even know where I'd begin, what I'd be trying to build, whether it'd connect to my Mac Pro still, or would be a standalone backup machine at that point, etc...)

Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[Tom.Wong]

to my knowledge LTO's are scsi based devices, you have to build an LTO system to get it to function...

 

[Matt Pope]

to my knowledge LTO's are scsi based devices, you have to build an LTO system to get it to function...

The one I purchased is SAS, not SCSI. Not sure how or if that impacts my current situation.

 

[Tom.Wong]

you will still have to build your system just to run the LTO, think about it like buying a dvd burner, you need a computer to house it, external or internal. Can someone jump in on more mechanics with putting a LTO system together?

 

[Matt Pope]

Hmm, I'm guessing this would be too easy, but...

Could I simply buy a cheap little case, a small power supply, and maybe a fan in which to mount the drive, then whatever appropriate connector I would need in order to connect the big wide SAS cable that comes with the drive to a mini-SAS connector that will attach to my Mac Pro (via the Atto H380) and use it just like an external drive attached to my computer?

Or will any case/enclosure I buy need to have it's own motherboard/cpu/memory and run its own OS?

EDIT: ie. like THIS cable.

 

[Tom.Wong]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23913

 

[Matt Pope]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23913

I've seen that thread and read though it all, but don't see anything in it that relates at all to what I'm asking. Can you point me to whatever it is that you're seeing that I'm missing?

 

[Tom.Wong]

theoretically you can build yourself a micro external box, micro atx case, base power supply, slap the LTO in there and run the connection to a SAS card in your mac. However the thread explains that even with the software you need, you might have compatibility issues with MAC OSX, and LTO's generally run better under other workstation OS's, windows or linux. So you might need to bootcamp, or think of perhaps building a separate computer just to handle your LTO backups, and back up via network, or hook up hard drives to it via mac drive or something along those lines.

 

[Tom.Wong]

i would also pm some people in that thread that have much more intimate knowledge on LTO systems, and help you work through solutions, hope all this helps you.

 

[Matt Pope]

theoretically you can build yourself a micro external box, micro atx case, base power supply, slap the LTO in there and run the connection to a SAS card in your mac.

I think this is what I'll try to do first.

However the thread explains that even with the software you need, you might have compatibility issues with MAC OSX, and LTO's generally run better under other workstation OS's, windows or linux. So you might need to bootcamp, or think of perhaps building a separate computer just to handle your LTO backups, and back up via network, or hook up hard drives to it via mac drive or something along those lines.

Given how many people seem to be using the HP 1840 / Atto H380 / Bru PE combo on a mac without issue, I feel somewhat comfortable trying this route, before going through the hassle of building a dedicated server.

 

[Andrew T Foster]

Hello,

I originally purchased this external Quantum LTO-4 drive that included the PCIe SAS card, cable, and external case for my Mac Pro. I've been using the newer version of Retrospect 8 (I waited until it became stable and stuck to 6) and it's working fine.

Here is the bundle I purchased;

http://www.provantage.com/quantum-tc-l42bn-ez~7QUAT08E.htm

..

Finding a SAS LTO-4 enclosure is insane. I did come across this one for $95.00;

PDE #11-0697 E301 LTO3/LTO4 Enclosure Mini-SAS 8088, Black Half-Height

http://coastalmicrosupply.com/pde-1...re-mini-sas-8088-black-half-height-p4708.html

..

Also you are going to need a PCIe card to access the drive. My Quantum bundle came with a LSI SAS3442E, which you can get at Newegg (but note that it's the -R version, which offers RAID capabilities).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...101&cm_re=LSI_SAS3442E-_-16-118-101-_-Product

..

I found an HP OEM version of the LSI SAS3442E-HP PCIe card here;

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-SAS-Controll..._Components&hash=item35a2ca95be#ht_500wt_1154

..

After that you are going to need a SFF8470 to SFF8088 SAS cable;

http://www.provantage.com/startech-isas88704~7STR90K6.htm

..

If you decide to go this route, I would contact the distributor of the SAS enclosure to make sure the internal tape drive connector will mate with the miniSAS connector inside the case.

..

Hope this helps,

ATF

 

[Matt Pope]

Finding a SAS LTO-4 enclosure is insane. I did come across this one for $95.00;

PDE #11-0697 E301 LTO3/LTO4 Enclosure Mini-SAS 8088, Black Half-Height

http://coastalmicrosupply.com/pde-1...re-mini-sas-8088-black-half-height-p4708.html

Thanks. Yeah, that's the only one I found as well so far. Unfortunately, the HP 1840 is a full-height drive, not a half-height. It *does* look like I might be able to fit it into a micro case that has two 5.25 drive slots though, maybe something like this:

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0286983

Also you are going to need a PCIe card to access the drive. My Quantum bundle came with a LSI SAS3442E, which you can get at Newegg (but note that it's the -R version, which offers RAID capabilities).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...101&cm_re=LSI_SAS3442E-_-16-118-101-_-Product

..

I found an HP OEM version of the LSI SAS3442E-HP PCIe card here;

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-SAS-Controll..._Components&hash=item35a2ca95be#ht_500wt_1154

I have the Atto H380 ready to go for this purpose...

After that you are going to need a SFF8470 to SFF8088 SAS cable;

http://www.provantage.com/startech-isas88704~7STR90K6.htm

Are you sure that's the right cable for me? From what little I can tell, it looks like the cable that came with the 1840 drive is a SFF8484, not a SFF8470. So I'm assuming I'd need a 8484-8088 cable, right?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Oh... Oooops.

Yes, an internal drive will work. It's the same as the external drive, just without the external enclosure. You could see if the ebay seller would be nice enough to take it back, maybe he's an equipment dealer who would swap you the internal for an external and you just pay the difference... I don't know the situation. I would pursue that course of action first because finding a full-height 5.25" drive enclosure with SAS connectivity is near impossible. They don't exist. OTOH, there are enclosures that will work, I will get to that in a minute...

Regardless of whether you use an internal or external LTO unit, you need a controller card. With the HP LTO drives, the best controllers to use on the Mac are the ATTO SAS controllers. I wouldn't even recommend considering anything else. Do not buy the LSI SAS controller mentioned in here for the Quantum LTO drives. Quantum has tuned their hardware to mate with a few specific controllers from LSI and Quantum's drives do not play well with other controllers. These LSI controllers do not play well with other LTO drives like the HP ones.

Depending on which Mac Pro you have and what other hardware you may wish to connect, you have a few options from ATTO. If it's a 2009 model Mac Pro, I recommend the ATTO H680 controller card. It has two external mini-SAS connectors. You can connect one of those to the LTO drive. The other connector can be used for other things. Like a SAS to eSATA fan-out cable, you can connect 4 eSATA devices to it via that port. This card is PCIe 2.0, so will give you more bandwidth on the '09 Mac Pro if you decide to hook up an external ROHS RAID or similar.

In older Mac Pro systems, your slots 3 and 4 are not PCIe 2.0 compliant, so you can use the ATTO H380 as the extra bandwidth of PCIe 2.0 would be wasted here. However, there are advantages to going either in either Mac Pro... The ATTO 6 series will support 6Gbps SATA and SAS hardware. The 3 series is a bit cheaper. Both series' of cards will work in any Mac Pro.

You will need backup software to use with the LTO drive. On the Mac, I recommend BRU PE.

Assuming you keep the internal version of the drive, you will need an enclosure to put it in. HP parts does sell the external enclosure for the LTO-4 1840 so you can make it the same as if you bought the external version. I think the external enclosure kit is about $299 (ouch, I know).

There are lots of enclosures out there and SFF PC cases that have 2 or more 5.25" exposed bays, but you have to be careful there. Make sure they support installing a full-height 5.25" drive. Most of them do not. They often have metal dividers between the individual half-height drive bays or other internal support, guide or structural pieces that can get in the way.

There are manufacturers that make SCSI versions of the enclosure you need. You can find these all day long. No one makes SAS versions that I'm aware of. But depending on the design, you may be able to find one that will let you remove the external SCSI connector and wiring harness and install a mini-SAS internal to external converter (about $12) and then run a cable internally from the rear of the drive to that converter.

The lowest cost option would probably be an SFF PC case. However, you're going to end up with a lot more bulk that way and many include a PSU that you would probably have to swap out for something else.

I'm sure I could come up with an enclosure solution if I spent a day researching it.

IBM has a full-height tape drive enclosure that they have discontinued. Some are floating around out there and they're pretty cheap. Here it is at Buy.com. The only catch is you will still need to track down the SAS connection kit for inside the unit as they sold the SAS or SCSI wiring kit separately. By the time you do that, it may just be easier to give HP a call and order what you need.

...Or just suck it up and buy a 4-bay 5.25" SAS tower and install the LTO drive along with a couple hard drives or something.

 

[Matt Pope]

Okay, here's the latest, and it's not getting any better. :frown:

As mentioned in the opening post, I have the following:

- Mac Pro tower
- Atto H380 SAS card
- Bru PE (trial)
- HP Ultrium 1840 *INTERNAL* (Oops!)

I found an old full-height drive case that had been used for some SCSI drive or another way back when. The 1840 fits in it perfectly, and powers off of the internal power supply without issue. Great.

Only catch is that the connector on the back of the 1840 internal isn't the same as the SFF-8088 that's on the Atto card. On closer inspection the cable looked to be a SFF-8484 to SFF-8482, and I determined that the 8484 side attached to the drive.

I was wrong. :cuss:

So now I knew it was the SFF-8482, but SFF-8088 to SFF-8482 cables are incredibly hard to find, I guess because it's basically an internal on one end and an external on the other.

I found one on ebay (here) that's a 8088 to 4x fanout 8482 cable and bought it.

Now I can connect my drive with one of the 4 8482 connectors on the one end, to my H380 with 8088 connector on the other end.

But my system apparently doesn't see the drive, and neither does Bru PE. :cuss:

According to the customer support guy at HP, neither the internal nor external is supported on OSX, and there aren't any OSX drivers for it. So I'm trying to figure out if there's a step I'm missing somewhere, be it drivers or some installation step in order to get the system to recognize the drive, or if it's more likely a cabling issue still or something.

I also asked the HP rep whether or not I could just buy a replacement case for an 1840 external and put my internal drive in there, but he claimed that they don't sell the case by itself.

At this point, I'm wondering whether I have to just bite the bullet and take a big loss re-selling this thing and get an external, or whether there's some way to still make this work.

Any more thoughts are appreciated!

 

[Matt Pope]

An update:

I couldn't ever get the "internal connected as external" drive working, so I replaced it with an external HP 1760, which is working great.

I do have one question for anyone familiar with the Bru PE software. Does anyone know a way to restore the contents of a tape once the catalog entry has been deleted?

I created a test archive and saved it to a tape, then to see what would happen if I deleted the archive from the catelog (not from the tape), I deleted it so it no longer shows it. Now I'm trying to figure out how I could restore that archive. If I click the "Read Header" button in Bru, it sees the archive on the tape, but it doesn't then add it back into the catalog. Since I'm only on the trial right now, I can't call the Bru people to ask them about it.

Thanks.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

You can restore a tape without a catalog from the command line. Supposedly the next update to BRU will have the ability to rebuild a catalog and/or restore a non-catalog tape from within the GUI. But we haven't seen any updates for a couple months about that.

Here's a post of mine from a couple months ago in the tape backup thread that addresses the command line.

http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=552779&postcount=275

 

[Matt Pope]

Thanks for the pointer Jeff. I ran the command from the link you posted and got some strange results. I ran it from a new folder called "test" on my desktop. The first time I ran it it gave me a warning about one of my volumes not being writable. This is the volume that the file initially came off of, but not what I was trying to write the files to. However, after I changed that volume to read/write from read only, I ran it again and it seemed to work. Not sure why that would matter since I wasn't trying to write to that, and it makes me wonder what would happen if I tried it on a different system that didn't even have that volume. Maybe it was just a one time quirk.

Anyway, after running it the second time, it seemed to work properly, but I couldn't find it in the "test" folder. I finally found it using search, and it had put it in a directory hierarchy under "test" starting with a folder called "Volumes" that is hidden. Do you know of any way to un-hide a hidden folder like that, or better yet to prevent it from being hidden in the first place?

Thanks again.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Be sure to feed the LTO from a fast disk array they write/read quickly, much faster than single drives, so to make the best of its capability make sure what ever its feeding it is faster than the LTO.

 

[Scott Brown]

Hi Folks

We've just taken delivery of a HP Ultrium 3000 LTO-5 drive and I'm looking for a HBA adapter to connect this into our edit suite.

I'm torn between the Atto H380 or the newer H680 card!

For info - We have a Proavio 8MS raid 6 unit set up with a Highpoint 4322 card running 8 x 1.5TB Seagate 7200.12 drives. The 4322 replaced a 3522 card that never worked properly and for information we are still having quite major problems with this and we're seriously thinking of getting the Atto R380 card or perhaps the R680 and probably purchasing enterprise class drives to replace the Seagates! Anyone using 2TB drives in raid 6 configuration successfully?

Anyway, I'm trying to work out if we'll see any benefit of using the 6Gb's cards as opposed to the older 3Gb's cards? Or if this would be overkill?

Best wishes

Scott