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Pirates 4 Make OR Break RED

Cid J Salcido Uyarra

Cid J Salcido Uyarra

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After visiting LA for CineGear I was exposed to all types of shooters the industry is starting to conform or have already established workflows.

The bold and high end DP's will talk all day on how 65mm is the best and how Film has a permanent and functional workflow. If you have a problem with film you can physically see it as opposed to digital it takes some time to find the source of the issue. Electronic media is constantly changing making it harder to archive the media to a proper and future proof codec. Film stays locked up in a fridge and it's a physical copy, doesn't change. Digital requires checking the files every month and transferring to a new drive every year if the data is of that importance. But film is really expensive and you have to be a hard player to roll film all day. All power to them, because Film is the shit but not everyone can afford it.

Then you have the 3D shooters that are taking risks in learning a new language and technique to tell a story in a different medium. The Film guys hate 3D because of glasses, then you lose 1-2 stops of light when you wear the glasses unless the projectors are properly calibrated which they never are unless you have a $5000 3D home theater set up but it's not the same experience like that of IMAX 3D. 3D films are great for exhibit purposes but not 2-3hr films due to comfort factor. Aslo 3D tends to have a false depth of field that can be misleading in certain shots. 3D movies may not take off unless they're in CGI, my guess is 3D video Gaming will save and push 3D to it's limits (New Nintendo 3DS coming out this Fall). I can't wait for the new Crysis 2 that will be in 3D. But as far as movies go 2D is just the bomb and we are so use to that language and fully understand what filmmakers are trying to entail visually with their stories. Personally I thought Dark Knight was a far better experience than Avatar. At the same time I feel 3D will push Digital Cinema to be where it needs to be. Only problem is that 3D takes more time to produce and getting the time to experiment for the right effect for certain scenes (Avatar took forever to make, keep in mind). In a 3D CGI environment it's much easier to experiment than a production with physical people, equipment, and environments.

The final type of shooter and the one with the most controversy is the DSLR. It has taken Canon and the industry by surprise and has opened new opportunities of experimentation that I feel will be the renaissance of movie making and production. Now anyone can afford to tell the story they want with out getting into debt and can finally skip film school, use $30,000 to give it a shot, see where it takes them. The season finally of HOUSE really made the push since the show has a huge reputation and gave it a cinematic feel that drew us closer to the characters that television viewers have never seen before.

With all this being said, due to all the delays and sketchy responses as to when RED will make their final announcement, I feel Pirates 4 will make or break RED. This is the biggest budget RED cameras have seen and they will be put to the test. Salt Water, new workflow, 3D, and RRR Pirates, plus it's Disney they don't fuck around! There is a small place for RED to exist, I find it in the commercial/music video/ and feature films. Not so much on the pro-summer end.

Yet, we are in times where Pro and Prosumer markets are merging and becoming one. Can the Scarlet take up some of this market? I personally don't think so. Yeah higher budget productions will use them but the average person has finally realized that DSLR is the perfect solution. Not only that but from the information I was able to mingle and gather, Canon has a new line of cameras that will set it straight, the best part is it will be as soon as this December if not Q1 of 2011. XL series will receive the 7D sensor and 5D MkII sensor with al the bells and whistles. Then the DSLR will maintain their form factor and price giving us more options like HDSDI out and a better codec which will be MPEG-2 Long-GOP 4:2:2 @ 50Mbps. This is kinda lame I was hoping 4:4:4 would be it, but they want to keep it the same like their XF305 & XF300 so you can shoot with all cameras and not worry about different codecs for seamless editing (Maybe an issue with Scarlets and Epics). Again these are rumors but they make perfect sense, you can decide for yourself.

I really want a RED and I am ready for RAW video but I don't think it's here yet. We are in the Nosferatu stages of film but in the digital realm. The new Epic will not kill celluloid you guys still have a ways to go, sorry, but it's pretty damn close and getting better. I look forward to the day when 65mm Digi exists, that will be the end of all end. Think about it, Digi IMAX! RED screw your Scarlet and Epic go 65mm Digi and show them how it's done! The industry changed faster than you can put out a camera and you are lagging behind. If you can give us an Interchangeable Scarlet since you already have many working prototypes jump the gun and we can wait for the Fixed. You have no time to spare considering the competition. Plus who knows what Sony and Panasonic have up their sleeves.

You are fighting a hard fight and I just hope you guys can make it through to the end while becoming a major player in the industry even though you think you already have. But can you maintain it?

Best of luck to the RED TEAM don't let me down I have much hope in you guys.

Cid
 
I feel like the post would have had more of an impact 2-3 years ago, RED has already made itself known, being used on hundreds of projects... Just look at the list of #31 red... shooting hundreds of music videos for all the top artists.

Southland
Knowing
The Informant
TV shows left and right, movies you had know idea where shot on RED

Pirates is just another movie in their book, a big budget, but if it fails, or the camera screw up somehow... Its not going to Kill RED in the least.

Workflow has caught up to RAW, once people realize RAW is the way to go, all these FF XL Canon lineups shooting to the MPG2 50Mbps will just become another Hi-8 camera.
 
Zac C said:
I feel like the post would have had more of an impact 2-3 years ago, RED has already made itself known, being used on hundreds of projects... Just look at the list of #31 red... shooting hundreds of music videos for all the top artists.

Southland
Knowing
The Informant
TV shows left and right, movies you had know idea where shot on RED

Pirates is just another movie in their book, a big budget, but if it fails, or the camera screw up somehow... Its not going to Kill RED in the least.

Workflow has caught up to RAW, once people realize RAW is the way to go, all these FF XL Canon lineups shooting to the MPG2 50Mbps will just become another Hi-8 camera.
Click to expand...

Good point, it'll will give people time to jump on the DSLR bandwagon, if they succeed and are talented then hop over to the Red bandwagon no problem. Will the next Mac Pro and Final Cut Studio determine the optimum workflow for RAW?

What if Canon decides to go RAW?

Thanks for sharing.
 
Zac C said:
I feel like the post would have had more of an impact 2-3 years ago, RED has already made itself known, being used on hundreds of projects... Just look at the list of #31 red... shooting hundreds of music videos for all the top artists.

Southland
Knowing
The Informant
TV shows left and right, movies you had know idea where shot on RED

Pirates is just another movie in their book, a big budget, but if it fails, or the camera screw up somehow... Its not going to Kill RED in the least.

Workflow has caught up to RAW, once people realize RAW is the way to go, all these FF XL Canon lineups shooting to the MPG2 50Mbps will just become another Hi-8 camera.
Click to expand...


This is not the time for RED to rest, though.

Canon has been shooting RAW with their still cams for a long time. My 5D2 will output both a RAW and JPEG file for each shot if I choose to have it do so. It's not too hard to imagine that Canon will do RAW motion pictures with a new breed of camera that came about because of the momentum the V-DSLR cameras have created.

The way I see it RED is establishing itself quite well with motion picture professionals.

Perhaps the giants will be happy with staying in prosumer arena, but will the prosumer users let them stay there? Will the giants use high end features to compete for the prosumers hard earned cash?

I think this is where the challenge may be for RED.
 
I think you guys have some good points.

However, with all the success RED is having, there are some people who oversee some of the big blockbusters we all know about but they have yet to take a look at what RED is doing because they are familiar with film so much and already have the workflow well established. So long as they are making profits, there's not a really big reason to change everything.

I talked to one of these people last night and he said that not until they heard that Pirates 4 being shot on RED, did they have their eye on it...now they do.
 
Joseph Hutson said:
I think you guys have some good points.

However, with all the success RED is having, there are some people who oversee some of the big blockbusters we all know about but they have yet to take a look at what RED is doing because they are familiar with film so much and already have the workflow well established. So long as they are making profits, there's not a really big reason to change everything.

I talked to one of these people last night and he said that not until they heard that Pirates 4 being shot on RED, did they have their eye on it...now they do.
Click to expand...

Of course they'll make the money back drawing profit. But they rely on Dariusz Wolski final verdict and word. The fathers of Digital Cinema is George Lucas, James Cameron and Robert Rodriguez and they haven't spent much interest in RED (All Sony)and they do allot of code writing not to mention code management. Also Red Tails has Bloom as 2nd Unit Director with all DSLR set ups.

This is a big step for RED.
 
Unless the movie absolutely fails at the box office, it will be a win win for everyone involve. If the movie fails at the box office, that's not a RED problem.
 
Unless their workflow proves completely unstable, then RED has nothing to worry about. As long as the cameras capture beautiful images, the RAW workflow flows, then they have done their part.
If the movie happened to suck, that would make me sad monkey face. But wouldn't rub an inch of my faith in RED and what they're doing. Y'know?
 
Make or break? are you kidding? Seriously, for a huge budget like Pirates 4, there is no way in hell they would use a camera that was "iffy". If anything it will be the swan song for the Red One. Its proved itself. This is its reward. The problem with the logic of "canon shooting raw stills for years" logic is that it has been 2-3 years since Red One started to filter out and they still haven't implemented it. So what's the hold up? either they aren't interested, or its not as easy as it sounds. I believe it is the latter. To do raw video, you need faster more expensive processors, a continually evolving codec to get the most out of it, better transfer protocols, more data throughput, and on and on... when you already own a huge market in the consumer area, why bother? its not like your gonna have a bunch of consumers spending $4k plus on a camera that shoots raw. hell most of them wouldn't even know what to do with it. I have many friends who have bought 7D's, 5D's and all their competitors, these people are not prosumers. they are average people who want to take pretty pictures. The raw mode on the camera means nothing to them. This is a huge part of canon, etc. user base. why waste money developing a technology that the vast majority of its users wont even notice or use?
 
Cid J Salcido Uyarra said:
Of course they'll make the money back drawing profit. But they rely on Dariusz Wolski final verdict and word. The fathers of Digital Cinema is George Lucas, James Cameron and Robert Rodriguez and they haven't spent much interest in RED (All Sony)and they do allot of code writing not to mention code management. Also Red Tails has Bloom as 2nd Unit Director with all DSLR set ups.

This is a big step for RED.
Click to expand...

Why do they have to use it, maybe there are just behind like all the old film nuts back when episode two was being made to stubborn to switch to a new way of doing things (or a new company with a new way of doing things). Red is a raw camera system, dslr's in the form factor they are in now or a while away from a raw shooting camera let alone one that competes with red(data rates, frame rates, overheating, olpf etc..). I think red is fine, actually more than fine I'm sure they will make it through "the following months".

To me those who question raw and the dsmc line of camera's and weather they would be better off with a 7d those are the people who don't get it. Now if you buy one as a stop gap or cause you don't have the money for red products fine but no reason to knock them if you don't understand them or want them. If you want the job done right and have as much flexibility as possible Red camera's are a much better motion video tool and in my mind will always be because they think about the end user and build around that.
 
Cid J Salcido Uyarra said:
The new Epic will not kill celluloid you guys still have a ways to go, sorry, but it's pretty damn close and getting better.
Click to expand...

Hey Cid. This is a bold statement about a camera that hasn't been released yet. I'm getting the new sensor in my camera next week, so come by and we can test your theories.

Julio
 
Ian, "the Raw logic" is only a small part of the overall logic out there. Why should DSLR's be singled out for their lack of "RAW video" when there isn't a single RAW digital film camera, no matter what the price, that is available? And when RED does introduce RAW, it will be a fairly rare bird indeed. But when one considers other potential contenders in the field, Alexa for example, and also considers it does not shoot RAW, then perhaps that will provide us with an alternative "logic" as far as where the DSLR's future might lie. You don't necessarily need RAW on a 21 megapixel full frame sensor to make waves. Time will tell.
 
Bill Anderson said:
snip...

Why should DSLR's be singled out for their lack of "RAW video" when there isn't a single RAW digital film camera, no matter what the price, that is available? And when RED does introduce RAW, it will be a fairly rare bird indeed.

...
Click to expand...

Either you are very confused or I am... RED already shoots RAW and has since its beginning. And Epic will, Scarlet will. I think many have said how difficult it is likely to be for the DSLRs to suddenly shoot RAW as it is a huge technological challenge and I doubt the current chips could ever handle it. What did you mean about "when RED does introduce RAW..."?
 
Cid J Salcido Uyarra said:
With all this being said, due to all the delays and sketchy responses as to when RED will make their final announcement, I feel Pirates 4 will make or break RED. This is the biggest budget RED cameras have seen and they will be put to the test. Salt Water, new workflow, 3D, and RRR Pirates, plus it's Disney they don't fuck around! There is a small place for RED to exist, I find it in the commercial/music video/ and feature films. Not so much on the pro-summer end.
Click to expand...

Cid -

For what it's worth - I understand the point your are trying to make - and YES - it's a big deal that Pirates 4 has chosen to shoot RED MX. But ... I'd also like to try to drive home the point that ONE film - no matter how big it is - isn't going to "make or break" a camera company.

The thing is .... RED ONE is already a proven camera. An Oscar and a couple of significant box office runs - countless critically acclaimed projects at all budget levels .... etc. etc. etc. ....
 
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I think Bill means uncompressed RAW - can't see the point when the existing REDRaw has been shown to be completely useable for applications where you might want uncompressed. All uncompressed means is bigger, heavier, faster, vastly more expensive hardware simply to handle, distribute, process, output and store the data.
 
Red offered a uncompressed raw port on the red one (when it first came out) with an additional fee, they got no orders (or not enough to make it feasible). the epic will have nearly uncompressed shooting options 2:1 (I think might be more compressed than that I don't know the real number but it is on the site somewhere) as well as many other compression options. From what I believe that is the case with all DSLR cameras that shoot stills as well their "raw" files are virtually or mathematically lossless (sp) raw like red, not uncompressed (as far as I know).
 
Ian is right on. POTC is the culminating achievement for the RED One. And Epic shall pick up the ball from here. Incredible. That's what it all is. Incredible.

Stephen
 
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