Zacuto camera shootout 2010 EP3: Surprising insights on 4K and Raw

[David Rasberry]

Keep in mind that the 2/3" scarlet only competes on price and RAW. the digial slr movie cameras still have the depth of field advantage. So we have to compare the s35 scarlet with them as far as that goes. Who know when that will be out.

2/3" is its own market, just as 16mm film has been for nearly 100 years. DOF is not a major issue for many of us that really like this format for its own strengths. My alternative to Scarlet would not be a DSLR, but an SI2k or a Sony or Panny 2/3" camera.

 

[Rick Burnett]

I found the video VERY informative and the examples showing the limitations of the DSLRs to be spot on. If you ignore the comments of some of the people at the screening, I think this test really opens the eyes to the problems with the current DSLR technology and allows people to know what they are. For example:

1. The skin tone in the color tests shows how the codec smoothes out the skin. Going back and forth between the film and any of the DSLR footage shows how much of the skin detail is lost.

2. When blowing up an image, the DSLR falls apart MUCH quicker in the codec. While the film was noisy blown up, I can see that the usable range if you HAD to blow up some section of a video is going to give you more room to work with that is acceptable. The DSLR compression noise was ABSOLUTELY not acceptable to me.

3. The color shifting with the codec was very noticeable and also important. Especially in the conversations about both the couch and the jeans.

4. The green screening tests were VERY clear. The hair movement of all the DSLRs had tons of green left in them OR on the last two, the Nikon and Panasonic, were very blocky due to the compression.

5. The dynamic range difference in their sudo 5D raw test was very interesting as well. Shows how much you lose between still and video mode.

While none of this is new to me as I own a 7D, it's a great example of showing these issues to other people who might not be aware of what you do have to deal with in these cameras. While I could do without the "professional" opinions throughout the film, I think the examples spoke for themselves.

I'll be honest that I am really sick and tired of hearing people say "Why not compare to Scarlet". Guess what? They couldn't if they wanted to. Scarlet does not exist yet for people to test. And a 2/3 Scarlet is not the same format. An S35 yes, absolutely, but again, until that camera is out in the wild, speculation is not scientific observation

Also, I actually own a Canon HV30, a Canon HF S21 and a Canon 7D. The HF S21 is NOT a superior camera to the 7D, actually the HV30 looks way better than the HF S21. Sure, the two things it handles better are moire & rolling shutter, but in EVERY OTHER test I have done they are not better but are worse. They are WAY noisier and their color is not even close to as nice. I was going to use my HF S21 or HV30 for my deep focus shots but I really don't like the image and when I push it, it just gets noisy. (Not to mention manual controls are a huge PITA on these burrito cams).

I like what was said above, if anything, this video is an advertisement for Red in my opinion. If anything, this reminds me EXACTLY why I want an S35 body yesterday. ALL the problems seen in this video I deal with at EVERY shoot. I look forward to not only the extra benefits of the S35 that this video does not cover (like the focusing, remote operation, etc), but all the ones that it does as well.

And I'll say one thing for sure, that music video from Madrid was awesome.

 

[Ryan Fitzgerald]

Lame

Lame

To do a camera comparison that jumps from 4k film to DSLR without including any RED camera is ridiculous. There is hardly a bridge there without the red. The only constant could have been the lenses used. I would have loved to see the RED in there. The DSLR guys shouldn't be so fearful, its a different price point. Maybe I'd just love to see it out do film!

 

[chrislancaster]

...and compression, and resolution, and image quality, and read-reset times, and modularity and... well, the list goes on.

You can list all the specs you want but none of it matters if you havnt even used one.


invest the 2000 or so and get 1 it will make you better ... nothing can compare to having it in your hand and figuring what is best for you

the spec and pixel peeping crap is really ridiculous im seeing guys make incredible stuff while the nay sayers are doing nothing

film making is more than code and tech talk its an organic experience


im sure thats why hollywood or a lot of hollywood ignored the red one

they are artist (or most are) not Geek Squad employees and they want the romance of film not a computer with a lens stuck to the front

epic/scarlet form factor and ease of use should fix this

and now the software is getting easier it allows your creativity to be free





and did i really hear someone bring up Canons Camcorder ..wow. :banghead:


camcorders are for soccer moms you want to make a film with one go ahead but it will look like shit

heres the reasons


no interchangeable lens

no shutter speed , ISO , Aperture,

no DOF , no manual exposure settings

i cant believe this has to be said


BUY a T2i and then when scarlet epic comes .. put it away or use as a B cam

but if these cams are good enough for Rodney Charters, ASC DP of 24 , House , etc...

they are good enough for you
:rant:

 

[David Rasberry]

and did i really hear someone bring up Canons Camcorder ..wow. :banghead:


camcorders are for soccer moms you want to make a film with one go ahead but it will look like shit

heres the reasons


no interchangeable lens

no shutter speed , ISO , Aperture,

no DOF , no manual exposure settings

i cant believe this has to be said


BUY a T2i and then when scarlet epic comes .. put it away or use as a B cam

but if these cams are good enough for Rodney Charters, ASC DP of 24 , House , etc...

they are good enough for you
:rant:

Canon's prosumer 3-chip camcorders are very capable, flexible cameras, Crank 1 and 2 come to mind as features that had extensive footage shot on 1/3" Canon camcorders

1. no interchangeable lens: With a 20x1 f2 zoom and a .5x zoom thru wide angle adapter, none needed.

2. no shutter speed , ISO , Aperture,:
I have calibrated my Canon camcorder for a range of ISO speeds for use with a light meter and it has full independent control of shutter speed and aperture apart from frame rates. 1/30-1/2000 shutter, f2-f22 aperture, plus 4 stop ND built in.
Sensitivity is an issue, mine has a practical ISO range from 50-200 with 100 definitely preferred. This is at 0 gain and no ND.

no DOF , no manual exposure settings:

1/3" doesn't give you much latitude with shallow DOF but it is possible. Mine has fully manual exposure settings, shutter priority, aperture priority, and full auto modes, pretty much the same as the still cams, plus full manual adustment of detail, and independent adjustment of RGB color levels and black level.

Fact is for general video production they are definitely more practical and superior in many ways to the video modes on the DSLR's. Just because a lot of videographers are too lazy to explore the limits of these cameras doesn't mean they can't shoot some very beautiful footage when properly exposed.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

With all this backlash towards camcorders from the new guys working with HDSLR's kind of reminds me of the whole 16mm or 8mm vs digital debates a while back. It's all good and well for people to have different tastes, but that is no reason to get caught up in the hype of a new technology and start to knock or undermine what others use.

For me it has always been about the cost of the equipment because for the most part I'm just experimenting and shooting small shorts with the occasional paid work (in this field). But just because you can only afford a product in one price range doesn't mean you have to demean and bring down all the other products you didn't get or couldn't get just to make yourself feel better.

There is always something newer and better out there, and there is always those who need that extra little boost in features and quality. Then there are the real artists who could make their vision come to life with crayons and a still camera if they had to(doesn't mean they do, or that they don't want the highest quality). For me this is about respect and showing it to the technologies and methodologies that came before, which allow us to be in the position we are now, to have a choice between a vast number of recording options.

I got a red.... HDSLR's oh they suck, and alexa is way overpriced
I got a 5d...... the 7d isn't ff, and the red is too expensive
I got a 7d....... the 550d is a cheap toy who would use it, and the 5d is too hard to pull focus
I got a 550d...... man all camcorders are jokes for tweens, and the 7d is too expensive.

2/3" doesn't have the right depth of field for me so there is no point to it

"I feel like I'm taking crazy pills" why can't we all just get along........

respect you fellow filmmaker and his technology

Peace

 

[Terry VerHaar]

You can list all the specs you want but none of it matters if you havnt even used one.


invest the 2000 or so and get 1 it will make you better ... nothing can compare to having it in your hand and figuring what is best for you

the spec and pixel peeping crap is really ridiculous im seeing guys make incredible stuff while the nay sayers are doing nothing

film making is more than code and tech talk its an organic experience


im sure thats why hollywood or a lot of hollywood ignored the red one

they are artist (or most are) not Geek Squad employees and they want the romance of film not a computer with a lens stuck to the front

epic/scarlet form factor and ease of use should fix this

and now the software is getting easier it allows your creativity to be free





and did i really hear someone bring up Canons Camcorder ..wow. :banghead:


camcorders are for soccer moms you want to make a film with one go ahead but it will look like shit

heres the reasons


no interchangeable lens

no shutter speed , ISO , Aperture,

no DOF , no manual exposure settings

i cant believe this has to be said


BUY a T2i and then when scarlet epic comes .. put it away or use as a B cam

but if these cams are good enough for Rodney Charters, ASC DP of 24 , House , etc...

they are good enough for you
:rant:

Not sure why you have such a chip on your shoulder... you'll notice I didn't say they make bad pictures, just that there are a lot of differences. And when Scarlet is out, I think that will be obvious. Mean time, I am shooting on a JVC HD-110 and making the most of it. And, yes, I am thinking of getting a 7D to fool around but mostly because I think it will be a killer still camera to replace my tired old Canon DSLR.

All that said, it doesn't change the fact that there are serious weaknesses in these cameras and no amount oif ranting from you is going to change that. :nono:

 

[Thomas Koch]

I've completely switched from my HVX-200. I now use the 5Dii as a b camera to the HDX-900 and to RED. In fact, when most of our projects are editing, more than 50% is the 5Dii, just because it can go where the other cameras can't. At some point we'll have Epics and Scarlets and we won't need to worry about h264 compression (except in our proxies wirelessly streamed!) at all.

But in the mean time, I'm using the 5Dii 3 or 4 times a week and investing a lot of money in glass.

 

[chrislancaster]

i used a 7d and a canon hfs10 to make a fun video and it looked great better than anything years ago ... that i can do


but why do u have to knock the dslr's saying theres this and that problem

and its not good enough for me

when the top guys are not just endorsing them but using them on some of the best tv shows on air ..that cost millions to produce

they are putting their money where their mouth is and for some guys to question them is really lame



the shootout was about DSLR and film ..its their shoot out they can compare anything they want

Zacuto rents out a RED ONE so i dont think its personal..its about selling a product but the product has to be good enough to sell

Terry im sorry its not personal to you i was just trying to say use one before you compare or say negative things because rumors mean nothing

 

[chrislancaster]

Canon's prosumer 3-chip camcorders are very capable, flexible cameras, Crank 1 and 2 come to mind as features that had extensive footage shot on 1/3" Canon camcorders

1. no interchangeable lens: With a 20x1 f2 zoom and a .5x zoom thru wide angle adapter, none needed.

2. no shutter speed , ISO , Aperture,:
I have calibrated my Canon camcorder for a range of ISO speeds for use with a light meter and it has full independent control of shutter speed and aperture apart from frame rates. 1/30-1/2000 shutter, f2-f22 aperture, plus 4 stop ND built in.
Sensitivity is an issue, mine has a practical ISO range from 50-200 with 100 definitely preferred. This is at 0 gain and no ND.

no DOF , no manual exposure settings:

1/3" doesn't give you much latitude with shallow DOF but it is possible. Mine has fully manual exposure settings, shutter priority, aperture priority, and full auto modes, pretty much the same as the still cams, plus full manual adustment of detail, and independent adjustment of RGB color levels and black level.

Fact is for general video production they are definitely more practical and superior in many ways to the video modes on the DSLR's. Just because a lot of videographers are too lazy to explore the limits of these cameras doesn't mean they can't shoot some very beautiful footage when properly exposed.

got a vimeo link of the great videos or footage this camera has produced?

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

''Zacuto Shootout''
This is why they sell their shitty products much expensive..Dont make any shootouts Zacuto just keep your prices fair level..

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I'm not sure about this. The consumer camcorders are sharper, for sure. But they lack a certain something that goes into DSLR images, and I think it's more than shallow depth of field. The Dynamic Range and colors on the DSLRs seem to be better. I've used an HFs100 and a GH1 side by side quite a bit, and the GH1 image is almost always preferred.

I'd rather have an Epic, though !

In fact, dynamic range of EX1 + adapter is at least 3 stops more than any DSLR.

DSLRS have great color fidelity and great color sat - albeit whatever look you get is hard to change/grade later.

Add this to low-light prowess (nothing better than RED MX though, and at f16 far less good than EX1/3 at f16 equivalent) and shallow depth of field and you have the selling poinst of DSLRs.

The real problem is non-HD resolution and that every single last bit of in-focus information is in fact just an alias - it's not just moire, which is only a flagrant example, it's everything. All high-detail areas from skin to hair to wood to anything look wrong.

Imagine if Sony or Red said "let's design a video camera with NO optical low-pass filter"! This is exactly what a DSLR is.

The very, very worst part is the hit-or-miss nature of DSLR videography - you might have to throw out entire set-ups of production!

I knwo I get repetitive on these points, but clients (especially agency art directors) need to be told this stuff again and again so that finally they can learn.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The first thing I would concede about shooting with these DSLRs is that they are probably a boatload of fun to play around with. The last thing I would ever concede is that they are a tool you would want to hang a professional reputation on.

Sure, I know all about "House" and have seen the great piece that Philip Bloom did for Skywalker Ranch (did you notice how very, very slow every single camera move was?) but were done very carefully by very experienced people who know where they can push the envelope. I couldn't help but be sympathetic when a friend of mine got his 550D and was so frustrated that he was having such a hard time getting good video out of it. I am sure it will happen but only when he understands what he is up against and adjusts accordingly. And I am sure there are many on this forum that have done some great work with them as well. But that doesn't change anything as far as what they lack.

Is there a place for these cameras in the professional world? I will concede that, at present, there is. But only until the Scarlet and its many likely competitors blow them away with a far superior set of parameters, and coincidentally, a much, much superior picture. As I said, I am close to ordering one myself. I am thinking t will reignite my interest in still photography! :hurray:

 

[Rick Burnett]

Is there a place for these cameras in the professional world? I will concede that, at present, there is. But only until the Scarlet and its many likely competitors blow them away with a far superior set of parameters, and coincidentally, a much, much superior picture. As I said, I am close to ordering one myself. I am thinking t will reignite my interest in still photography! :hurray:

For me it comes down to this. I know I want the S35 Scarlet and Fixed brain, no question. From what I have seen and if the specs do live up to what has been told to us, these will be dream cameras. But right now, I don't want to invest in another camera with an S35 sensor that will cost me what $10k to $30k minimum? (this is including like an EX1 with an 35mm adapter) And the cameras at the lower end are not even going to be very close to low light sensitivity.

It was a simple choice. I put the money in the bank, and have invested in lens that I will use with the S35, like the Tokina 11mm-16mm F2.8 (which is AWESOME).

Basically, when the S35 is in my hands, all the technique I have learned in understanding my lens and workflow with that sensor size are going to be a wonderful thing. Plus, removing all the negative aspects of my DSLR is going to be like adding an arm to my body. To me, I see no better path.

For others, who do this for a living, I totally agree. These cameras are NOT something to base your reputation on. I tell that to people all the time coming from film and other cameras who are just not knowledgeable about them. But I do tell them they are a lot of fun.

I'll even go so far to say if it wasn't for the 7D, I'd not have realized how awesome an S35 sensor size is because I couldn't afford anything to get me even close before.

It's a gateway camera

 

[chrislancaster]

The first thing I would concede about shooting with these DSLRs is that they are probably a boatload of fun to play around with. The last thing I would ever concede is that they are a tool you would want to hang a professional reputation on.

Sure, I know all about "House" and have seen the great piece that Philip Bloom did for Skywalker Ranch (did you notice how very, very slow every single camera move was?) but were done very carefully by very experienced people who know where they can push the envelope. I couldn't help but be sympathetic when a friend of mine got his 550D and was so frustrated that he was having such a hard time getting good video out of it. I am sure it will happen but only when he understands what he is up against and adjusts accordingly. And I am sure there are many on this forum that have done some great work with them as well. But that doesn't change anything as far as what they lack.

Is there a place for these cameras in the professional world? I will concede that, at present, there is. But only until the Scarlet and its many likely competitors blow them away with a far superior set of parameters, and coincidentally, a much, much superior picture. As I said, I am close to ordering one myself. I am thinking t will reignite my interest in still photography! :hurray:

the slow move is just Blooms style ..it wouldnt look right if it moved quickly ..it was a nature piece and the moves fit the mood

House used the dslr every which way possible from handheld to crane

im very happy that EPIC is dslr or dsmc form ... that will be such an easy transition for the people who have invested so much into their current dslr rigs



back to the shoot out .. im confident they did not show a RED or will ever show a RED compared to film because there will be no shock it will either be as good or better but not many will watch with much interest because they already know the results

the surprise wont be there like with a cheap dslr

 

[chrislancaster]

For others, who do this for a living, I totally agree. These cameras are NOT something to base your reputation on.

I know phillip bloom had a following before dslr's

but

he's built a career on these cameras and continues

I'll even go so far to say if it wasn't for the 7D, I'd not have realized how awesome an S35 sensor size is because I couldn't afford anything to get me even close before.

It's a gateway camera

so true.... dsmc cant get here soon enough

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

This is a bit of a side note but I don't get people who are so eager to slap an adaptor on an EX1, I've shot on an EX1. Didn't use an adaptor and still created cool stuff, if I shot on an EX1 again I still wouldn't use an adaptor.

 

[Ben Graham]

My 7d is the best handycam ever.

Any camera is just a tool. It's more important what your shooting than what it's being shot on.

We have everything from dv XL1s to REDs and all are more than capable of shooting a good movie as Soderberg has proven over the years

 

[chrislancaster]

ive heard that any camera can be a good tool BUT

thats true for things like camcorders and flips as one trick ponies ..

people are going to get real tired if every movie you make is on your iphone



plus if the story is so great a camcorder will suffice

would you want to do the story justice with the best camera possible??
:emote_popcorn:

 

[Stephen Matthews]

Sometimes people get caught up on trying to have the best quality image, and never shoot anything. Rather than going out there and shooting with what they have available to them. If you are good and you make something, it's more than likely you should make some money and be able to justify getting that better quality camera and not have to make all your subsequent movies on a phone. On the flip side if you are not making good movies, not making money and don't have the time to spend practicing then maybe this isn't for you.

Like I said before, everyone has their place in the feeding chain and that's why all this choice is good. Of course we all want the best possible quality but sometimes fixating on certain aspects of the art too much can be very detrimental to being productive.

Have a good one