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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

How about an "XLR Module"

Michael Hastings said:
Turn it around - what current close to $4500 or greater video camera DOESN'T have XLRs?
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Not a single DSLR video rig has XLR's(and a decent kit is more or less in the 4500$ range) but that doesn't stop them from shooting adverts, music videos, major network shows or feature films or in any other way revolutionizing this industry in a way just like RED did with R1, and will with the Scarlets, Epics and the MX sensor R1's :out:


I just had a look at the Arri Alexa brochure and it has 1 xlr port(5 pin), but I don't see anybody whining that they need an extra adapter/box to plug in their radio mics or boom mics, because apparently it's meant for professionals. :violin:
 
Like I said in the other thread, I think it's a great idea for a module that just has 2 or 4 XLR inputs and 2 or 4 trim knobs and maybe a headphone out is great, but if it were $500 then I'm gonna say no.

For me to fabricate some sort of bracket that has 2 XLR inputs to 2 TRS 1/8 connectors is simple. I can mount that bracket ANYWHERE on the camera.

For those scenes where I am not using audio when using multiple cameras, I like the idea I can put those small little mics in the front and use them instead.

I like the fact I don't have to use an XLR plug all the time that sticks out or makes the camera body bigger to account for their size.

I applaud Red for putting these on there. I would MUCH RATHER have TRS 1/8 then miniXLR. I have close to 300+ cables in my studio (I counted them) and not one of them is a miniXLR, it's not that common of a cable. Yet in a pinch, I could get XLR and 1/8 cables even at radio shack if something got lost.

I don't want RED to change the connectors on the Scarlet.

I liked the comment someone made in another thread "There are 5 cent 1/8 jacks and there are $5 dollar 1/8 jacks" (paraphrased horribly), but this is ABSOLUTELY true.

I plug my headphones, Sony PCM-D50 recorder and Beachtek adapter in and out of 1/8 jacks OVER and OVER again and have NEVER had a problem. They work flawlessly and have for over 4 years.

I am just glad of one thing, RED didn't create some unique RED only connector to attach too. I'm glad they are providing phantom power through the TRS. I am glad they are giving 24-bit 48kHz sound.
 
Michael Olsen said:
I think the core of this issue is that the fixed Scarlet is giving us a whole lot in the base package in terms of image quality. After all, it's pretty much just the brain. But the price point can create some interesting issues since it begins to become attractive to prosumers who may not understand the nature of some of the tradeoffs they have to make. For instance...


... (snip)...



4. RED isn't for everyone. Nothing is, but air and water. And people still argue over those ("They only have Perrier? I always drink VOSS.") There are simply some people for whom RED just won't work. And while that still feels a bit off because I think RED is so fantastic and offers so much possibility, it's just the way of life.
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Michael, I think this is a very good analysis and probably very accurate. My own, less articulate, version, after a good bit of contemplation, has me thinking that it is the Scarlet's low price that is causing all the angst. I have yet to hear anyone who is planning on spending $28K for an Epic to complain about the high price of modules. Logically, if you are spending $28K for a brain, you have to figure you are going to spend several thousand more for modules and most likely even more than that for glass. Enter Scarlet at $3K or $5K and the whole equation gets weird. Because RED chose to make the modularity universal, some potential Scarlet buyers feel tweaked because of the disproportion.

It is actually sort of funny that more people aren't complaining that the prce of the interchangeable Scarlet is not cheaper compared to the fixed. After all, by all reports the lens on the fixed is going to be pretty impressive - probably worth $1K to 2K itself. So if you subtract the value of all those modules that come with the fixed, and then subtract the value of the lens, shouldn't the interchangeable brain end up at about $1200? Maybe the interchangeable lens Scarlet at $2750 is a bit of a rip-off, eh?

I like the way David Raspberry describes it in the forum (I think it was he, apologies if not - I'll try to look it up): he says at $4750 he figures he's buying a really great lens with a camera brain thrown in for free.
 
Think of Scarlet as a digital 16mm film camera rather than a video camera. However the I/O modules gives industry standard HD-SDI broadcast output that can record in industry standard HD formats to something like a Nano flash as well as redcode to CF cards or SSD.
You either need or want what Scarlet offers or you need or want a normal video production camera. Scarlet can be configured to do both, but fully equipped to match the features of say an HPX500 or Sony PDW-EX350, it will fall in a similar price range to other entry level 2/3" cameras, around $12k+ for the fixed or around $20k for the cinema model with low end $8k B4 ENG servo zoom. Not exactly a prosumer price range camera system. But it will be capable of closely matching or beating the performance and image quality of any 2/3" HD camera at any price.

In short, quit thinking of it as a prosumer video camera. In its most stripped down basic functional configuration it may be priced like one, but it can be configured to just about any level and form factor you choose. In any configuration its image quality will be head and shoulders above anything near its price and image quality first is truly what Scarlet is about.
 
The second page of this thread is full of excellence, valid points and good reasoning all around.

If you're a small-time video guy who is mainly doing one-man-band style shootings and think that 3000$ for the pro I/O module is too much and want one for a cheaper price because you've no use for HD-sdi, timecode or other stuff that comes with it then firstly you're lacking ambition to move up the production ladder and secondly there are plenty of 4500$ cameras with XLR inputs if Scarlet isn't floating your boat or Chucking your Norris.
 
Juhan Malmstein said:
Not a single DSLR video rig has XLR's(and a decent kit is more or less in the 4500$ range) but that doesn't stop them from shooting adverts, music videos, major network shows or feature films or in any other way revolutionizing this industry in a way just like RED did with R1, and will with the Scarlets, Epics and the MX sensor R1's :out:


I just had a look at the Arri Alexa brochure and it has 1 xlr port(5 pin), but I don't see anybody whining that they need an extra adapter/box to plug in their radio mics or boom mics, because apparently it's meant for professionals. :violin:
Click to expand...

NOT talking about dslrs - so far all of Reduser has been about how dSLRs aren't REAL video tools and certainly not "PRO".

If you search on pro camcorders on B&H:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/P...i/1881/Ns/p_PRICE_2|1/N/4289232633+4289246399

you don't get ANY without XLRs until you get to the under $2500 single chip HD or 3 chip SD camcorders.

I don't think most people care as much about it having actual XLRs as some solid way of attaching the plugs so they don't have to worry about inadvertent disconnection, so locking 1/8" TRS, mini XLRs, or even the 1 or 2 small screw holes I suggested earlier to allow a solid miniplug to cable out (to XLRs or whatever you want) adapter plate to be attached easily.

David Rasberry said:
Think of Scarlet as a digital 16mm film camera rather than a video camera. ...

You either need or want what Scarlet offers or you need or want a normal video production camera.
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That's kind of a silly analogy. If it's just "digital16" might as well just throw out audio altogether - even though that's half the beauty of electronic motion pictures - integrated sync sound! Again, for the most part it isn't like people are asking for an audio upgrade - just a locking connector.
 
Film is compromise. Even the most controlling producer or visionary director must surrender their power to another at some point.

1/8 TRS? awesome! I already have cables for those. Wait, I can run phantom power through them as well? Looks like im set! We could have gotten a camera with no audio inputs at all. But hey, here I am, with very little money or equipment, saying that the RED scarlet offers a much more superior camera at a low pricepoint; I think Ill make all the oddities work... you know... compromise.
 
Michael Hastings said:
That's kind of a silly analogy. If it's just "digital16" might as well just throw out audio altogether - even though that's half the beauty of electronic motion pictures - integrated sync sound! Again, for the most part it isn't like people are asking for an audio upgrade - just a locking connector.
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I was thinking in terms of the higher resolution and RAW work flow comparing more to film than video.
My antique Auricon 16mm records sync sound to film too! :hat:
Agree 100% on the connectors, locking 1/8" or at least a convenient spot to secure a cable clip would be nice.
Audio quality shouldn't be a problem either. No other video camera I know of records full 24bit 48kHz audio, a least not in the under $20k range. Hope the preamps are decent and have enough headroom. That was always my pet peeve with Sony,even on their higher end cameras. Their mic preamps were garbage. Noisy and no headroom.
 
David Rasberry said:
My antique Auricon 16mm records sync sound to film too! :hat:
Agree 100% on the connectors, locking 1/8" or at least a convenient spot to secure a cable clip would be nice.
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I bet that's some awesome audio quality! :-) (Any better than VHS?)
 
Michael Hastings said:
Look, I get that 1/8 is probably here to stay and it doesn't bother me that much to workaround, but it isn't quite fair to characterize those who do care as hubristic, silly whiners. Turn it around - what current close to $4500 or greater video camera DOESN'T have XLRs?
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Exactly.
 
Bob Rudis said:
We used these way back with the Sony VX-1000...

http://www.beachtek.com/dxa2t.html
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Terry VerHaar said:
Except that the output on these is a single stereo jack. The 1/8" inputs on the Scarlet body are each a discrete channel, balanced (with phantom power). I may be wrong, but I don't think this will fill the bill.
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The prosumer XLR adapters are all built for cameras with unbalanced stereo inputs on a single 1/8" jack. THEY WILL NOT WORK WITH SCARLET! and may damage the mic preamps. All that is necessary is a simple 1/8" TRS to XLR cable, one for each input.
 
All this talk about 1/8 TRS is all really .... amusing.

There's always a way to make connectors work, and no matter what kind they are, it's up to the operator and crew to take care of them. Tripping over cables, loose connections, damaged plugs - all that can happen regardless. Personally, I'm pretty sure one of those channels will usually be connected to a Sennheiser receiver with a custom-made cable with screw-lock 1/8 "stereo" plugs on both ends (there's a guy on eBay who I'm sure will make them on request) - in this case the ring (#1 pin, ground) is not wired.

The issues that have barely been discussed are preamps and controls. My 2 cents:

Preamps: I assume part (maybe a big part) of the price (and size) of the Pro i/o module is due to higher spec preamps. You get what you pay for. In terms of sound quality in the basic brain, I assume the preamps will be at least as good as the prosumer cams with xlrs and probably a lot better.

Controls: The Redmote has a nice big dial and lots of buttons that look programmable, and it's wireless. I would assume/hope you can get a level readout on the Redmote screen. How's this: push a button, adjust channel one level, push another button, adjust channel two level. Compare that to the HMC150 I usually use. The friggin level dial is so small I can't get a feel for it while handheld, and if it's on a tripod I often end up jiggling the camera while adjusting. Not to mention the accidental brushes that change the level.

Personally, I like to think about doing some actual WORK with this incredible TOOL. Others may like complaining or responding to complaints. Have fun!
 
I too am very much onboard with David's astute comparison. It is a 16mm Digital camera, and mainly for one reason or another I just see it is a image capturing device. But I'm biased because I almost always shoot double-system.

I am not arguing against the idea of such a module, however I am sure that RED plan on recouping quite a bit from the modules and accessories so it might not make good business sense.

If you are using the Scarlet as a videographer then i can see it being of great benefit. For shooting films though...If you ask me the biggest issue with indie films is the lack of interest 'self shooters' have in good quality sound. Make some sound friends. I have next to no knowledge of sound, but its not my skillset. I know what i need to know, in order to get me by, but thats it.

Iwould use the balanced audio on the Scarlet for getting atmos or reference when shooting GVs/Stock/plates and for interviews on those rare occasions I do them.
 
If those little 1/8 jacks are in front, under the lens then the only connector that won't get in the way would be an 1/8" 90 degree. I have to doubt that sticking the additional length of adaptor directly on there is even practical. It doesn't sound like I'd want to handle it at all with cables and connectors on the front there. That leads me to the other benefit of the Red modules.

If I understand correctly, they are not an adaptor type of arrangement. They will not pass through the existing connector, rather they will be main lined through the system and bolted securely on. The connectors will be out of the way of the lens, either the side or the back.

This point about robustness of the connections and their locations on the body are really important. If you have less substantial connectors, like 1/8" and they are located in places where you will be prone to bump and stress them just by handling and operating the camera, then they will not hold up. I'm relatively certain that all 1/8" connectors are soldered on to a plastic board. It will not tolerate any bumping or pulling, much less the added weight, length and resulting leverage of additional adaptors hanging off of there.

If the standard I/O module gave me nothing more than 2 XLR jacks in a managable location, then that alone would be worth the $1500. The alternative is the fairly high risk of damaging your camera. It's a practical solution and good insurance. If you don't have the dough, you take your chances. It's your call, but I at least will be waiting to see the units, examine the specs and listen to hands on reviews from reasonable people before I come to any conclusions.

Why suggest alternatives to the two modules they are already making when the available specs and prices for them aren't even really set? Are these things definite and posted somewhere? I have not been able to find them.

It is of great benefit to have all of your I/O in one place, particularly if you will be adding and or subtracting any other mix and matched modules... You simply put all of the I/O on the end with the addition of a single unit. It's less of a puzzle that way I would think. So I would not personally be interested in an XLR only module if I had to add other I/O as well.
 
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There is a beautiful, small enough and compact field mixer from Sound Devices called MixPre.

It has basically everything what you need for a proper professional recording

and with its size would perfectly fit to Epic/Scarlet modular back.

It runs on 2 AA batteries.

Dimensions: 43 mm x 94 mm x 140 mm (h x w x d), (1.7" x 3.7" x 5.5")

MixPre_01.jpg

Sound Devices MixPre fixed with Velcro double mounting side tape on RED universal mount.

MixPre_02.jpg

Sound Devices MixPre fixed with Velcro mounting double side tape on RED universal mount.

MixPre_03.jpg

Sound Devices MixPre fixed with Velcro double mounting side tape on RED universal mount.

MixPre_04.jpg

Sound Devices MixPre fixed with Velcro mounting double side tape on RED universal mount.

Key Features:

- Dynamic range exceeding 110 dB
- 10 Hz to 50 kHz audio bandwidth
- Maximum of 66 dB of gain per input
- Premium Lundahl input transformers
- Discrete 6-transistor balanced output drivers
- Sealed, conductive plastic potentiometers
- Seven-segment, sunlight-readable GaN LED meters
- Phantom power, 48 volts or 15 volts
- High-pass filters @ 80 or 160 Hz, 6 dB per octave
- Inputs hard panned to left, center, or right outputs
- High-power headphone monitoring
- "Unclippable" input peak limiters via two-stage opto-isolator circuit with adjustable limiter threshold (per input)
- Dual mono or linked stereo limiter operation
- Two internal AA batteries
- External 5 to 17 VDC powering
- Power LED indicates low battery power
- RF filtering on all inputs and outputs. Free from "Pin 1" grounding problems
- High-strength, extruded aluminum chassis with protective metal end panels
- All-metal connectors solidly connected to chassis


Read more>>>
 
Scott Crawley said:
Why suggest alternatives to the two modules they are already making when the available specs and prices for them aren't even really set? Are these things definite and posted somewhere? I have not been able to find them.
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Most of the information is here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=37011
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=37425

But of course, anything can change at any time.


Base I/O Module $1750
Single and dual link HD-SDI with Full size BNC.
Mini-XLR Audio Inputs
One Aux power/GPIO
Lens/RS232
Timecode input/output.


Pro I/O Module $2950
The PRO I/O module will support up to 4 channels of AES-EBU digital audio and will be compatible with mixers like the Sound Devices 552.

The maximum number of recorded audio channels is 4, so enabling two or four AES-EBU inputs disables the corresponding analog audio input(s).

The Base I/O Module does not include the AES-EBU digital audio inputs. There is a Word Clock out pin in the same connector that ingests the AES/EBU digital audio.

Single and dual link HD-SDI with Full size BNC.
Full size XLR Audio Outputs
Full size XLR Audio Inputs
Two Aux power/GPIO ports.
Lens/RS232
Timecode input/output
 
I don't even know if this is possible, but if RED made an Audio Module with 2 XLRs inputs, physical knobs and a built-in mixer (like Sanjin posted) it would be amazingly cool.

It would make the lives of the event/documentary/guerrila filmmaker incredibly easier.
 
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