SAG actors on non union production

[Mike Brent]

Hey,

My question is simple - did you ever hear about any SAG member who was kicked out of SAG for working on a non SAG production?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If that were the case I would have gotten a lot of people's SAG cards revoked over the years .

 

[Mike Brent]

That's what I figured. But I want to make sure... so if ANYONE, EVER heard about ANYBODY getting kicked out or even getting a fine..... please let the world know.

This whole union non union is just one big B##@!t

 

[Erik Bien]

Does getting yelled at by Elliott Gould count?

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

did you ever hear about any SAG member who was kicked out of SAG for working on a non SAG production?

YES

http://www.sag.org/global-rule-one

SAG Actors must get clearance or "waivers" in order to work in non-union productions. Those productions must be "SAG Signatories"

This is not a huge deal, SAG is probably the most flexible union in this regard.

There is some paperwork, and there are some rules the production must follow- mostly about working conditions. (work hours, guaranteed turnaround, & overtime are the ones that affect me.)

If an actor does not follow these rules they can in fact be barred from the union. That rarely happens though, especially since most of the projects that proceed without signatories or waivers are "small potatoes," and often don't last long at all. Usually the union just doesn't know. However if the actor is prominent, or later becomes prominent, it can come to the union's attention, and become an issue for them and/or the producers.

It is more common for actors to be suspended for a fixed time, or fined.

SAG has ready made agreements that cover productions from studio feature budgets down to no-pay student/indie films.

Becoming a SAG signatory costs little or nothing, and it a minimum of paperwork. Its a minimum standard for serious work in my opinion.

http://www.sag.org/industry-services/producers-center/producers-center

The "New Media" rate sheet says that you as a producer can negotiate whatever you want with SAG Actors, but you must comply with local and Federal laws. (minimum wage etc.)

 

[Mike Brent]

I didn't ask what are the rules, everybody knows its not allowed, I asked if anybody was actually ever kicked out.

 

[Mark Allen]

I've never heard of anyone being kicked out. I have heard of but not known anyone to have lost their health benefits. But, it's hard to say if that was a true story or just info confusion.

In theory any SAG member like any union member can go "core" because of some law in the US. what this means is basically SAG doesn't like you, but they can't stop you from being in SAG and working outside of SAG, they CAN however make you not have health benefits and never hold office in SAG among maybe a few other SAG benefits i don't know about. There are actors who selected "core."

 

[scott tebeau]

Actors are always worried about this sort of thing, but I have yet to see anyone fined, let alone kicked out of SAG. This could be base on the fact that the projects have been relative low exposure.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

you can give an actor a producer credit and not worry about SAG whatsoever.. them being a producer on the project supersedes the sag acting contract

 

[J Davis]

Right now I'm working with SAG actors as well as SAG reps as we make a contract different to the norm. Just want to add to this thread that so far as my dealings with SAG have gone, I completely support SAG and recognize the need for SAG to exist. It is vital. Also the reps that I have been dealing with (Ari and Joanna) have been very helpful especially as we move into new ground with new media and theatrical crossovers.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I didn't ask what are the rules, everybody knows its not allowed, I asked if anybody was actually ever kicked out.

Oh well then since you only want to know if it happened then:

Yes.

I know two people who were fined and one person who was barred from SAG for working outside their union agreement. It was all from the same production debacle. On that show we also had a gaffer tossed from 728 and the DP (not me) was ejected from 600 where he was an AC of some sort. I know the SAG actor got some waivers and was eventually readmitted, but I lost touch with all the others.

Through other SAG members I know of several more members who have had various consequences for working non-union.

The bottom line is that it isn't a huge deal, but it happens.

When I want to use SAG actors, we do the stupid paperwork and there are never any worries. Its the only responsible thing to do. I also advise any members of other unions to call in their jobs- which is often enough to satisfy the unions on a no budget show.

 

[Billy Barber]

OK so this isn't exactly on topic but when I was a young jingle producer and AFTRA (sister union to SAG of course) member I hired myself to sing background on a :30 spot with the recording studio who threw me a lot of work as signatory. To cut to the chase I was behind in my dues (cut me a break I was twenty two) and AFTRA fined the studio $800. This was back when that amount of money was , at least to me, huge. I felt I couldn't let my biggest source of income be held responsible for my lapse so I paid it. To this day I remember exactly the way it felt to walk into that office and give up that kind of money to a union which was supposed to be helping me because I had hired myself. Childish to harbor resentments for so long I know but indicative of unions at their worst, at least to me. Every time I hear the word union I still bristle.

 

[Mike Brent]

Not childish at all. Unions are unamerican. Free market should rule. In general there should be a higher minimum wage but penalties for releasing people 5 minutes late to a lunch break and all that crap? Give me a break. $400 a day for background actors? When you have so many homeless people in the streets and people who work 10 times harder for peanuts at Mcdonald's, its just plain stupid. I will keep my shots non union on principle.

If it was cheaper to produce we would have much less blockbuster summer crap flicks and more high quality productions that actually make people think. So you could say that the cost of production and unions are what kills cinema in this country.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Ah yes those pesky unions who don't want their actors/staff to work for peanuts at 20 hours a day as most producers would love them to do.

Your seriously advocating that a gaffer/grip should work a 20 hour day?

I disagree with a lot of the unions stances (such as billys incident) but by in large they are a nessesary evil in my opinion.

 

[Mike Brent]

I think minimum wage should be $15 an hour no matter what you do and everything else from that point should be decided by the market.

If you are good enough and you do something that someone is willing to pay you $200 an hour - so be it. Everything other than minimum wage is market distortion (as far as wages are concerned)

Regulation on the financial market is another story... s#@s of b#$#s

 

[M Most]

I think minimum wage should be $15 an hour no matter what you do ....

In that case, it's not a "free market" you favor, it's government regulation.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If it was cheaper to produce we would have much less blockbuster summer crap flicks and more high quality productions that actually make people think. So you could say that the cost of production and unions are what kills cinema in this country.

People like summer crap flicks. Get over it.

The cost of most of those big summer flicks is in VFX (non-union) and A-List talent (Union, but well above union rates).

You know what produces art house filims? Well payed camera men, directors, gaffers, grips and VFX artists who can say "fuck it" and work for less than they need to make to survive.

Here is exactly what would happen when they broke up the unions. The budget would get cut a little bit. The producer would pocket the difference on the back end. He would then proceed to make *another* movie just like the first but for a little less.

Look at the state of the VFX industry. The margins are almost non-existent. Many go bankrupt. Without organization the studios all are forced to undercut one another to get any work to the point where they lose money on films. These reduced rates hasn't resulted in less blockbuster popcorn flicks, it's just resulted in longer hours, less job security and more profits for the producers. You would just see more gulf streams, not more indie flicks.

Meanwhile rates would be going down. People would be working longer hours. Talented and experienced people would start leaving in droves for greener pastures, the general quality of work would decline since enthusiastic college grads only put up with shit for about 5-10 years before wanting a more stable job and nobody would have the time, money or energy to volunteer their time on risky projects. If I'm making $15 an hour I'm not going to be able to help you out with your film, I got bills to pay! Oh and I have no down time.

Look at it from the perspective a producer. If it's a micro film or a big blockbuster you have to find talent. You have to raise money. You have to do pretty much all the same things. At the end of that do you want your 10% to be 10% of 400M or 10% of 400k. There isn't enough time in a year for a producer to put together enough 400k films to make what they would get on one huge film. The larger the take of each film they work on the more efficiently they make money. It's like the difference between a door to door salesman and a wholesaler. Sure the profits are better when you go door to door but you'll never physically be able to walk to enough doors to make the amount a wholesaler makes.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Mike would the fact that you wanted to pay a DoP 200 dollars a week have anything to do with your dislike of unions?

 

[Mike Brent]

Mike would the fact that you wanted to pay a DoP 200 dollars a week have anything to do with your dislike of unions?

no

There is a difference between "some friends trying to pull off a short or feature" and a "real" production which is trying to make money. I'm willing to sign a paper saying any money earned from this will be donated to charity, hows that?

 

[Ketch Rossi]

I'm dealing now with this very issue, and it is not an issue, Union, can take a Leave of Absence, and work on a non Union project, but there is a limit to how many times they are allowed to do this.