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Advice on buying my first RED One

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Vern Moen

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Hello everyone. I've been at DVXuser and now am getting ready to graduate to RED. I'm looking for advice on what to buy. I've tried piecing the information from other threads but I still am looking for specific advice, and I'd appreciate any input.

I film mostly documentaries (features and shorts), some music videos (about 5 a year), and I'm looking to do a couple short narrative films this year for myself.

I've been using an HVX200 with Letus Adapter and Nikon lenses. I love this setup except for the bulkiness of the adapter and the light loss.

A light weight setup for handheld filming is ideal. No matte box. No big zooms. On board mic usually. Go between sticks and hand held quickly. i pull my own focus. i'll (probably) be shooting in 2k.

My questions:

- Should I get a RED One or wait for the Scarlett (I'm guessing i couldn't get one in my hands sooner than the end of the year - which i would miss out on a lot of rental $$)? I definitely need interchangeable lenses.

- I want to use my old lenses. I don't like new lenses (typically). I like gritty and unpolished images. What's a good s16 short zoom lens?

- What accessories should I get? Does the Mantis Rig fully replace the "Production Package" that Red has on their site? EVF or LCD monitor? -- I don't want both. I also want a handle on top, an on-board mic (and possibly light -- i have both), and I'm assuming i shoot shoot on the CF cards. I've done tons of reality TV so the weight of the RED shouldn't bother me.

That's probably more info than you need, but that's my situation. If anyone can give me any advice -- i'd love it.

Thank you.

Vern

www.longbeachfilmcompany.com
 
So I guess my next question is should I buy a USED R1 or a NEW one? Is there any benefit in getting a new one (other than the fact that its, well, new)?
 
Can't a new R-1 purchased now be traded in for an Epic brain later on?
 
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Personally I would buy Jay A Kelleys RED one and have him do the MX upgrade.
Full MX shooting package for 26,000. Use your Nikon lenses and your ready to roll.
For people wanting to buy into RED this is the time to snap up some of those stage 2 baby's and get an MX sensor in them.
 
Vern Moen said:
I've done tons of reality TV so the weight of the RED shouldn't bother me.
Click to expand...

In all seriousness, you should go rent/borrow an actual RED and see for yourself. Most people coming from your area are surprised at how heavy the RED is to them.

It sounds like you are a Scarlet guy...
 
Vern Moen said:
A light weight setup for handheld filming is ideal. No matte box. No big zooms. On board mic usually. Go between sticks and hand held quickly. i pull my own focus. i'll (probably) be shooting in 2k.

My questions:

- Should I get a RED One or wait for the Scarlett (I'm guessing i couldn't get one in my hands sooner than the end of the year - which i would miss out on a lot of rental $$)? I definitely need interchangeable lenses.

- I want to use my old lenses. I don't like new lenses (typically). I like gritty and unpolished images. What's a good s16 short zoom lens?

- What accessories should I get? Does the Mantis Rig fully replace the "Production Package" that Red has on their site? EVF or LCD monitor? -- I don't want both. I also want a handle on top, an on-board mic (and possibly light -- i have both), and I'm assuming i shoot shoot on the CF cards. I've done tons of reality TV so the weight of the RED shouldn't bother me.

That's probably more info than you need, but that's my situation. If anyone can give me any advice -- i'd love it.

Thank you.

Vern
Click to expand...

short answer - you should wait on the scarlet

long answer - rent or borrow a red handheld package for a day and keep it on your shoulder for several hours. Your definition of "a lightweight package"
will change. An easyrig can help this.
The mantis is also a useful accessory. You still need a battery plate, drive holder and et bridge plate, as the mantis only replaces the handheld portion of the prod package.

A good super16 zoom would be the cooke 9-50 or the canon 8-64. But why do you assume that you'll be shooting 2k all the time? I only ever use it for slo-mo above 60fps.

The evf is not available anymore so the lcd it is.

I'd still say wait on the scarlet. It seems like a better match for what you are proposing. The weight of the red shouldn't bother you but it will.
 
Vern, advise on renting one first is excellent. But before you do that, do the following in this order: 1) determine your budget; 2) determine what a lens or lenses and all the other minimum accessories will cost (like $15,000 min and easily double that for only a modest system); 3) determine if you are going to do your own editing and, if so, figure the cost for the software, Red hardware, fast computer and storage, all at another $10,000+; and lastly 4), how much time you have to invest in all this learning. There is a very steep learing curve to be successful using the Red. Go into this with your eyes wide open. Great camera, but don't make the mistakes I and many others have made.
 
Got to agree with some of the above posts. The Red One is a heavy beast compared to a Letus + HVX200 (or EX1) rig, and you might find it actually restricts your ability to work rapidly. The ergonomics are not really that great for a one-man band shouldermount approach, but it is workable. You need to get hands on to judge this. The other thing I think you may feel on first use is that the light loss through the Letus is not all that bad after all. I'd lay strong odds that you actually find you want to shoot 4k - I had pretty similar thoughts to you before buying our Red, and a lot of expectations needed to shift.

I'm fortunate enough to have a friendly machinist who made me some simple parts I designed to adapt the production pack to work with Sony quick release tripod plates. The Sony plate is not as solid as heavier gear out there, but very useful if you want to go from the legs to shouldermount rapidly and repeatedly.
 
Vern Moen said:
why would i want to shoot 4k?
Click to expand...
Short answer is that it gives you more flexibility in post to zoom in on a part of your image and not have it look like some software interpolation. Really, once you've dissected 4k footage into segments you will understand why 4k, 5k, or even 6k is so desirable. It gives you the ability to do a "do-over" without actually going out and re-shooting.
 
Vern,

I looked at a bunch of work on your site. (really nice) and I can see that from some of your work you are the type of film maker who moves quickly and is capturing a lot of really nice moments.

Someone else mentioned to rent a RED package and give it a shot and I think that is a great idea. The transition to RED is more like a transition to film style. Nothing about RED is point and shoot, it's a manual camera and everything needs to be thought out. IE: no built in microphones, etc. The camera takes a lot more power than what you have been using, batteries are bigger and heavier, and you need more of them, etc. so your kit becomes at least one bag bigger even in a lightweight setup with nikon glass (which I use often).

The weight means, bigger tripod, etc. The RED one also takes about 90 seconds to fire up before filming.

If you have a 2 person crew all the time then adding the RED is simpler.

I have used RED in light and heavy configurations depending on the subject matter.

Forget about shooting 2k (unless you are shooting speed)

The reason you capture 4K is this. Full lens coverage a 50mm is a 50mm at 4k at 2K its' 100mm lens.

So if you need a wide lens for all your HH work then a 17 becomes a 35mm lens, etc. You film 4K for the best field of view for your glass.

David
 
David Battistella said:
Vern,

I looked at a bunch of work on your site. (really nice) and I can see that from some of your work you are the type of film maker who moves quickly and is capturing a lot of really nice moments.

Someone else mentioned to rent a RED package and give it a shot and I think that is a great idea. The transition to RED is more like a transition to film style. Nothing about RED is point and shoot, it's a manual camera and everything needs to be thought out. IE: no built in microphones, etc. The camera takes a lot more power than what you have been using, batteries are bigger and heavier, and you need more of them, etc. so your kit becomes at least one bag bigger even in a lightweight setup with nikon glass (which I use often).

The weight means, bigger tripod, etc. The RED one also takes about 90 seconds to fire up before filming.

If you have a 2 person crew all the time then adding the RED is simpler.

I have used RED in light and heavy configurations depending on the subject matter.

Forget about shooting 2k (unless you are shooting speed)

The reason you capture 4K is this. Full lens coverage a 50mm is a 50mm at 4k at 2K its' 100mm lens.

So if you need a wide lens for all your HH work then a 17 becomes a 35mm lens, etc. You film 4K for the best field of view for your glass.

David
Click to expand...


An excellent summation, David.

As so many others have mentioned, try one out, preferably set-up in a manner as you anticipate you'll be using/outfitting yourself. It quickly begins to ride the line between being able to handle it completely by yourself and needing a dedicated assistant.

Someone mentioned Easyrig...I would say that even with a relatively stripped-down, lightweight setup, the heft will likely wear you down over the course of a day of handheld/run-and-gun. Adding an easyrig to the equation will greatly increase your stamina for days like these...it may be the only way you can safely handle a day of handheld shooting completely on your own.

I'm looking forward to the smaller form factor of the DSMC systems. The R1 is an incredible camera, but it isn't something you can throw around for 14hrs and feel anything other than depleted by the end of the day (at least, I can't!)...

To put it another way, if you were to buy a used car (and drop in upwards of $25k on it), you'd take it on a test drive, wouldn't you?

Best of luck in making the decision...

Cheers,
Clint
 
Working on a crew that went from the HVX200 to the RED (and still shoots on the HVX when that's more appropriate) I can tell you we found the differences to be:

1) It's a lot bigger and heavier. If you're used to a Letus the size might not be much of an issue, but if you're handholding it a lot, or just carrying it from location to location a lot, the weight is quite noticeable.

2) You generate a lot more data. A RED shoot for us means twice or four times the amount of data, so we need more hard drives with us, and we need to be dumping footage constantly (on most shoots except for very slow-moving commercial shoots) rather than just dumping P2 cards during lunch break.

3) It uses a lot more battery power. Rather than just being able to carry a day's worth of batteries in a small pack, we have four batteries and one charger, and we have to be really diligent in ensuring the charger is always plugged in and working, and that we cycle batteries regularly to recharge them before they are fully depleted.

I would agree that you should find an individual/company/rental house in your area to check out a RED package to get an idea of everything that it entails.
 
So...
I went down to RED in Lake Forest to check out the cameras they have in their new retail "facility". Quite disappointing. They have the cameras locked down to 2 heads and you can't take anything apart or even hold the camera. Even worse was the "help" there -- guy sits behind a computer and it's like pulling teeth to get him to explain something or sell you on anything. My assistant asked him if he could help him with the menu and he told him they have "a great website that can give you all the info". Anyway -- doesn't matter. That's for a different post.

I'm pretty savvy at pulling my own focus and I've done a ton of reality TV in my past so I'm used to carrying a 30 lb camera on my shoulder for long periods of time.

I'm thinking 2k will help with me pulling my own focus and also allow for longer loads and less hard drives. That's worth more than being able to zoom in on resolution -- do over's never happen in doc work regardless.

No easy rig. I've used one and it's too bulky, clunky, restrictive, and i move to much for it.

I am bummed on the 1 minute startup time on the R1. A lot can happen in 1 minute, but i guess i'll just have to change my approach a bit.

Thanks for all this -- lots of great help.
 
It really sounds like the kind of rough and tumble shooting you do would be better served by a an Ex cam, either 1/2 or 2/3rds. The 2/3rds will give you the same thing as 2K on Red, but with a motorized rocker zoom already attached.

Red can be a superb walk and gun cam - you don't need a crew of 30 people to shoot Rd - but it's not really run and gun.
 
I was in exactly the same position as you - we had panasonic HPX171 with Letus, and I found the Letus to be playing at it, cumbersome and restrictive. We looked at 2nd Red's but we found people to be to clingy to their packages and way to many caveats. The exchange rate for the UK didn't make it a bargain either.

We kitted out a Red1 as light as possible (ET Battery mount, Nikon Lens, DSM Batteries, Compact flash only - no drive or any of the Red support systems etc) and it's still no heavier than our HPX301. So we can still use the tripod. (things may change if we go down the film set-up route, but we're kitting out for our present clients and it isn't for hire, so cost and weight were both minimised.)

We've also carried over the FF and Rods our redrock system.

Workflow has been good too. Operating a pre-built VISTA 64/CS4 set-up and everything has worked perfectly.

The only thing I don't like is CF cards and their interface, as I've already wrecked the pins on one reader! CF is no P2! But the HVX/HPX aren't red either.

I decided to buy new as most of the used sales on come with way to many conditions and hassle, and not enough of a saving and if you're not interested in EPIC-X then I'd rather have the new one as it's much better picking and choosing your own system which can be a mine-field due to the amount of third party gear.

(Noah's book is great reading away from the WEB, and is a proper book with insight, experience and information.He makes the Red system seem approachable rather than confusing.)
 
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