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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Build 30 is a step backwards

Now, it sounds to me that we need to take another look at how zebras are or are not working. They don't need to be referencing RAW for your needs - they just need to indicate clipping at ISO320. Is that right?

Graeme[/QUOTE]

Hi again graeme.

Right now, I'd be stoked if they indicated clipping at 320 in redcolour.

Long term it would be great if they worked at whatever iso you set whilst watching in redcolour and they didnt display on the monitor output, but just Evf and LCD.

Thanks for listening.

Jb
 
Ok - just did a test here. Lit up my wedge test so I've got a full greyscale range of light hitting the sensor.

Set camera to ISO320. Set it using the raw false colour to show that the top wedge and only the top wedge is clipping - red fizzle.

Now turned off the false colour mode.

Now turned on the zebra. Setting it to 99 made the same area that was red fizzle now have zebra.

So no, it doesn't work at 100 any more - but it does seem to work fine at 99 and indicate the same clipped area as the accurate raw clipping false colour does. Does that work for you in the meantime until we can do some more thinking on this feedback?

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Now turned off the false colour mode.

Now turned on the zebra. Setting it to 99 made the same area that was red fizzle now have zebra.

So no, it doesn't work at 100 any more - but it does seem to work fine at 99 and indicate the same clipped area as the accurate raw clipping false colour does. Does that work for you in the meantime until we can do some more thinking on this feedback?

Graeme
Click to expand...

Are you looking in raw or redcolour when you say it's works at 99 ? In redcolour I could only get it to work at 95%

jb
 
Looking in REDColor. This was on M-X, so the number may differ slightly on M, but if you find the number where the zebra and the red fizzle match, then that's your indicator.

Graeme
 
I have to second that. Just got my MX camera back after a 8 weeks shoot and got really confused with how the zebra works now. Before I could set the camera at 320 and the zebra as high as it would go (103?) and I would know that if the zebra showed up that area would be near over-exposed.

Now with build 30 everything works different. Zebra won't show up until the image is way and way over exposed. I don't understand the logic in that.
 
I think the simplest future based answer for John is:

A zebra setting based off the red "clipping information" of exposure check. He wants a tool that does exactly what the red color of exposure check does, but is subtle and leaves the rest of the image unmolested. So a setting in "zebras" to have the zebras display anywhere the "red clipping" indicator would in exposure check.
 
It's because FLUT is trying it's hardest to keep the RGB image from over-exposing.

BTW - just tried same experiment on M, and 99 works there too for me.

Graeme
 
the changes in zebra function took me a little off guard, too...it's kind of an important feature for documentary shooting - on feature shoots, you can futz around a lot more with exposure settings - but for event-driven shooting, John is right, it is important to have zebras while the camera is rolling - also to minimize the toggling and button-pushing - which really doesn't work so well with event-driven shooting...an essential tool...

would love to have these back, even if it means establishing a baseline ISO - mostly good for doc work, feature shooters probably wouldn't care - I didn't miss it on the last feature that I DIT'ed - RAW false color was perfect for setting focus in that application.
 
Zebras

Zebras

Good morning all. Not sure where you are seeing the problem here.

Set the camera to ISO 800 and enable Zebra 1.

You should see that the Zebra is a pretty good aligned to the red sizzle.

- or if you want it to appear a bit earlier adjust the LO value.
 
John, understand you're upset here, but let's make sure we are all on the same page and think through this logically.

What cameras are you shooting with? M sensors? If I missed that, I apologize, but that would be the first place to start.
 
Zebras

Zebras

John Brawley said:
Are you looking in raw or redcolour when you say it's works at 99 ? In redcolour I could only get it to work at 95%

jb
Click to expand...

John, all that Zebras are doing is using a value in the RGB domain to indicate a clip point in the RAW domain (or SMPTE range HD-SDI output peak white)

Under FLUT that means a value of about 99 IRE, but the actual value that you use as your clip indicator is up to you, so if you want to use 95 that is fine too. Alignment to the sensor RAW data for any ISO can be verified by enabling Zebra 1 and Exposure false color, then opening the iris until you see red sizzle. If the Zebra 1 cross hatch does not already overlay the red sizzle area, adjust the LO value until it does.

At ISO 800 this should already be the case, if not go ahead and trim it.
 
FWIW in an ETTR world, M sensor with earlier color science, pushing exposure up to the clip and then backing it down a half was a valid way to rough in your stop. As John notes, a zebra reference at 100% can be an excellent way to ride your iris during a shot when required.

Ultimately the real answer is the individually adjusted viewing options anticipated for each monitor path on the DSMC line. Of course that's not soon enough to help JB. Good on Graeme to make the effort. In theory you could make a variant of the "E" screen that put the red fizzle over a color image but is it worth the effort? Perhaps for John.

Side note: Just the other day I was pulling my own focus on the barrel with talent coming straight at me so I really wanted the focus assist on. Lucky for me the director readily accepted the monochrome image with the purple fringe once I told him it's purpose and that I could restore full color during playback. On some other sets that might have caused a riot. Kind of ironic when they have 3 producers in video village drinking coffee and having a cow about the monitor feed, but no budget to hire a proper 1st AC to pull focus - but that's another thread :out:

Cheers - #19
 
Zebra

Zebra

FWIW in an ETTR world, M sensor with earlier color science, pushing exposure up to the clip and then backing it down a half was a valid way to rough in your stop. As John notes, a zebra reference at 100% can be an excellent way to ride your iris during a shot when required.
Click to expand...

Sure that is valid and there is no reason not to do that now. The value will not be 100 anymore - 99 or 98 is probably the "new 100" - but it still works.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Ah, but zebra never showed correct clipping other than at ISO320, which is obviously not right. If you dropped to ISO200 it would never show you clipping even when you were, which could (and probably has) caused serious issues.

So, I don't know if a raw zebra is possible with the red one camera architecture as-is. This is something Stuart and I will have to discuss and see what can be done.

Graeme
Click to expand...

The thing is, that you don't get correct clipping now, unless you do the exposure adjustment thing to make false color work or you cycle through the various exposure, focus, false color menu until you find out. I also agree that FLUT should be left out of the production process because it does not map everything and it's caused me more over exposures. It's great for post, but proving problematic for production purposes.
 
Hence the new accurate raw clipping false colour. FLUT should be in camera as it leads to a better looking image. The histogram and the warning goalposts and the traffic lights all tell you if there's over-exposure.

Graeme
 
False Colors in Build 30

False Colors in Build 30

The thing is, that you don't get correct clipping now, unless you do the exposure adjustment thing to make false color work or you cycle through the various exposure, focus, false color menu until you find out. I also agree that FLUT should be left out of the production process because it does not map everything and it's caused me more over exposures. It's great for post, but proving problematic for production purposes.
Click to expand...

You must stop using the multi-color overlay as an exposure tool! It has been replaced by the new tool.

Any discussion about what it shows under B30 with regard to "sensor clipping" is therefore irrelevant.
 
Stuart English said:
You must stop using the multi-color overlay as an exposure tool! It has been replaced by the new tool.

Any discussion about what it shows under B30 with regard to "sensor clipping" is therefore irrelevant.
Click to expand...

You are talking about the new exposure tool that only shows what's actually clipping and what's under exposed?

Not to be mean Stuart, but I feel like you all had a great tool in the previous FC, and now you have replaced it with a far less useful tool because it simply tells us far less information.

If you want to leave the exposure tool in, that's fine. However, I really want FC that has the full range of colors that in REDColor will tell me what's happening in that colorspace, and if I switch to RAW (before, I always had one of the LCD buttons switch back and forth to RAW) it shows me what's happening in RAW. Heck, even something that would monitor the FC in REDColor as RAW FC monitoring would be good.

I ask for this because I am often wondering how close to clipping I am on some things. I know what detail I can and can not pull out of the sky/lamp shades/etc. and knowing how close exactly I was to clipping helped me figure out my exposure. As I said before, I feel like this mode makes me use my meter far more and slows me down instead of just being able to iris quickly and figure out my exposure on multiple things quickly at one time.

So just a request to bring back a feature that was the best exposure tool I've ever used.

Matthew
 
Stuart English said:
You must stop using the multi-color overlay as an exposure tool! It has been replaced by the new tool.

Any discussion about what it shows under B30 with regard to "sensor clipping" is therefore irrelevant.
Click to expand...

This is the problem, DPs want multicolor with subs and overs. It´s really imposible to improve? Why don´t do it?

We still with B21

Thanks
 
Because of the way multicolour works, it's tied to RGB rather than RAW.

Graeme
 
I find it has never been easier to expose RED than the combination of the new CS, RAW metering tools and M-X. I think it's important to spend a lot of time with these new tools, doing tests from shot to post. After spending a lot of time with it and getting a full understanding of how everything is working together, if one still feels it's easier to get an exposure with the old system, then I'd have to be convinced because I'm finding the new system works really well. I might be wrong.

Sitting here on set today, I'm loving everything about M-X and Build 30.
 
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