Thread: I call Hot Rod Cameras Bluff with a $10,000 Bet (for Sharpest PL RF for Komodo)

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  1. #1 I call Hot Rod Cameras Bluff with a $10,000 Bet (for Sharpest PL RF for Komodo) 
    Member GrahamClark's Avatar
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    Breakthrough Filters recently announced the first drop-in filter system for PL RF for Komodo as well as PL DSMC2.

    Check out “The Making of Mark Toia’s Drop-In Filter System for DSMC2” here:



    After announcing a simplified version straight PL RF mount for Komodo (without drop-in), Hot Rod Cameras said “We'll outperform Breakthrough's mount. That's an easy bet”, with regards to out of box sharpness.

    (https://www.instagram.com/p/COwO0jmHxsN)

    Sounds like a fun idea to me, so shall we call this bet the “$10,000 PL RF Komodo Sharpness Bet”?

    Breakthrough Filters and Hot Rod Camera’s both put $10,000 in escrow, winner takes all.

    In the event of a tie, 100% of the $20,000 goes to a non-profit charity chosen via RedUser poll.

    Oh and hello RedUser.net, glad to be here.

    My name is Graham, I’m a landscape photographer (www.grahamclarkphoto.com) and industrial designer.

    I run Breakthrough Filters product design and manufacturing.

    I also run a 5-axis CNC facility where we make products for filmmakers and photographers (www.newideasco.com)

    My path to designing and machining products for filmmakers came about when our drop-in filter system which I initially created for the R became practical for filmmakers shooting Komodo as a result of it also using the RF mount.

    We’ve already begun shipping PL RF Komodo mounts to a number of filmmakers, learn more you can visit www.PL2RF.com (nothing to buy, just info).







    Graham
    Last edited by GrahamClark; 05-27-2021 at 10:36 PM. Reason: Hot Rod "easy bet" context
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  2. #2  
    Senior Member Tim Daust's Avatar
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    First off, Welcome to REDUSER Graham!

    Second, guess this opens a can of worms doesn’t it?

    Wonder if Illya is going to take you up on this?
    Tim Daust
    Reelmind Studios
    WEAPON HELIUM 8K S35 #6197 "Wicked"
    DSMC2 GEMINI 5K S35 #15175 "Jade"
    KOMODO 6K #0011 "Tangie"
    @TimDaust @ReelmindStudios
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  3. #3  
    I have not bought one of these. But from looking at the video... There is a reason for ND solutions to have hard stops / ND 3,6,9,12 etc. Equal to F stops, equal to doubling the frame rate etc.

    As for a lot of situations you want to be able to filter down or up exactly a known number of stops and then also be able to dial back where you had it before. As it looks this video this system works more like just turning the dial which is possibly great if you don't need known stops increments but like to set the exposure just to taste. But being such it makes it so that one would need to buy both the VND and fixed ND´s... Or how is it work, is it possible to know how much filtering is applied when turning that little thumb wheel?
    Björn Benckert
    Creative Lead & Founder Syndicate Entertainment AB
    +46855524900 www.syndicate.se/axis
    Monstro & Komodo
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member Bob Gundu's Avatar
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    Graham! Good to see you here.
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  5. #5  
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    I put money down last year on your drop in filter system but after 4 months of waiting I canceled, got the PolarPro / Metabones PL mount. But this product seems interesting and might switch to this set up when it hits the mass market and reviews come in. please post updates.
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  6. #6  
    Senior Member Ketch Rossi's Avatar
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    Nice one and welcome to Reduser Graham!!
    Looking forward to chat again ;)
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  7. #7  
    Member GrahamClark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    I have not bought one of these. But from looking at the video... There is a reason for ND solutions to have hard stops / ND 3,6,9,12 etc. Equal to F stops, equal to doubling the frame rate etc.

    As for a lot of situations you want to be able to filter down or up exactly a known number of stops and then also be able to dial back where you had it before. As it looks this video this system works more like just turning the dial which is possibly great if you don't need known stops increments but like to set the exposure just to taste. But being such it makes it so that one would need to buy both the VND and fixed ND´s... Or how is it work, is it possible to know how much filtering is applied when turning that little thumb wheel?
    Just to clarify, the video you're referencing is for a drop-in DSMC2, whereas this post is regarding a straight PL RF for Komodo.

    But to answer your original question, we made the drop-in VND for photographers, where the arbritary optical density of how it rotates is a non-issue, as in photography getting to a specific stop is not important, whereas in cinema hitting a specific OD is.

    All drop-in filters we've made so far were created specifically for photographers.

    However I can see for filmmakers visual reference marks for OD + 0.8 modulus for motor control (and probably more) are reasons to make a "cinema" drop-in filter.

    Graham
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  8. #8  
    Graham,

    I appreciate your marketing chutzpah.

    Publicly calling out the inventor of the PL mount adapter, on my friend Phil Hollands post on Instagram no less, and then challenging me to a $10,000 bet.

    Fine.

    But if I am to go through with this you, we first need to have a discussion of exactly how any contest will be administered, exact criteria, who will be the judge..etc.

    I don't know you, so to proceed let's establish an element of trust. You are the challenger brand in this space, you have everything to gain by going up against the original and still best PL mount adapter ever made, and nothing but a $10,000 charitable donation to lose.

    You mention Instagram, in Phill's post comments a 3rd party decided to take you to task for your claim, to which you responded rather rudely and accused of being connected to KipperTie. I don't know that person, but I have to say they made exactly the right point.

    Which is, the distance between sensor position and camera flange depth is 100% the largest variable in the equation, especially when you have multiple manufacturers of cameras building to that same standard.

    The manufacturing tolerance of any single mount adapter is f-ing TRIVIAL compared to all the cameras without sensor or native mount distance adjustment.

    So it seems like you don't know this, which means I have to question your claims big time.

    Which based on what you've written, it seems you are claimig that your knock-off, non-adjustable mount will somehow be more precise than The Hot Rod PL - Mark II, correctly shimmed to any camera being tested.

    That is a fools errand. It's like saying that you will be able to throw a ping pong ball from the top of Coit Tower into fishbowl, blindfolded, and the fishbowl is on Alcatraz.

    This will be fun, I can't wait to see what you write next.
    Illya Friedman
    Hot Rod Cameras
    www.hotrodcameras.com
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  9. #9  
    Member GrahamClark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illya Friedman View Post
    Graham,

    I appreciate your marketing chutzpah.

    Publicly calling out the inventor of the PL mount adapter, on my friend Phil Hollands post on Instagram no less, and then challenging me to a $10,000 bet.

    Fine.

    But if I am to go through with this you, we first need to have a discussion of exactly how any contest will be administered, exact criteria, who will be the judge..etc.

    I don't know you, so to proceed let's establish an element of trust. You are the challenger brand in this space, you have everything to gain by going up against the original and still best PL mount adapter ever made, and nothing but a $10,000 charitable donation to lose.

    You mention Instagram, in Phill's post comments a 3rd party decided to take you to task for your claim, to which you responded rather rudely and accused of being connected to KipperTie. I don't know that person, but I have to say they made exactly the right point.

    Which is, the distance between sensor position and camera flange depth is 100% the largest variable in the equation, especially when you have multiple manufacturers of cameras building to that same standard.

    The manufacturing tolerance of any single mount adapter is f-ing TRIVIAL compared to all the cameras without sensor or native mount distance adjustment.

    So it seems like you don't know this, which means I have to question your claims big time.

    Which based on what you've written, it seems you are claimig that your knock-off, non-adjustable mount will somehow be more precise than The Hot Rod PL - Mark II, correctly shimmed to any camera being tested.

    That is a fools errand. It's like saying that you will be able to throw a ping pong ball from the top of Coit Tower into fishbowl, blindfolded, and the fishbowl is on Alcatraz.

    This will be fun, I can't wait to see what you write next.
    1. PL to RF mounts are shipped on Wednesday May 26th, 2021, to Denz Precision Manufacturing: https://www.denz-precision.com/en/company/
    2. The mounts may not be created specifically for this event, but rather they must be "production" units already shipped to filmmakers, not units made specifically for this experiment.
    3. Denz is a German CNC facility which manufacturers flange depth measurement instruments. They are a 3rd party who is an authority in flange depth measurement, and they are unaware of your false claims, so let's call them an objective jury on accuracy for flange depth?
    4. I'm calling you out on your false claims – nothing more.

    How else are filmmakers to determine signal-to-noise ratio? That's worth much more than $20,000.
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  10. #10  
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    In the spirit of letting cooler heads prevail:

    https://youtu.be/yByhd7FAOug

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