Thread: Why should I buy Komodo over BMD 6K Pro?

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  1. #11  
    Senior Member Michael Hastings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Ravens View Post
    Michael,

    Thanks for your knowledgeable post. The whole argument of global vs rolling shutter is quite subjective, I think. Personally, I find the jello effect quite unsettling for high motion shots.
    Apologies for the senior moment I had. Yes, I meant speed booster, not expander. Being able to choose a FF 35mm FOV or a super 35 FOV gives me an adaptability for all my stable of EF, L glass lenses. I just bought a 24-70 f/2.8 EOS lens specifically instead of the R mount equivalent, just so I could use the Canon speedbooster on my Canon R. I don't have an EF-s lenses...;) Guess I'm hoping that, eventually, R mount becomes as de riguer as EF mounts have become. Surely R mount opens up a much wider possibility for lens choices than EF, including the few FD legacy lenses I have.

    There's been some info from Breakthru Photography that they have a line of VND insertable filters that don't display the common VND artifacts. I'm taking a gamble that these reports are accurate. I just can't feel comfortable with BMD's design approach placing 3 different flip down ND's between the lens and the sensor, each one able to collect dirt and dust on their own.
    Bill: I too really dislike jello on fast moving subjects - I'm an aviation/space buff and it's super annoying to see props curved to a half circle. (BTW RIP Mike Collins Apollo 11 CM Pilot who just passed - favorite astronaut and wrote the best astro autobiography "Carrying the Fire" - if you read only one that's the one.)

    My bread and butter shoots involve primarily underwater - often with an add-on interview or some local B-roll - neither much of an RS problem.

    But truthfully Global shutter combined with the ability to use PL mount lenses (which I forgot to mention in initial post but since corrected) are the biggest reasons that lean me toward Komodo.

    I take your point on filter wheels and cleaning - but there have been about a billion cameras made with them over the years - so I'll call that six of one/half dozen of other. But the point that you have many more and probably better options with external vs. internal is totally valid.

    EF allows a lot of adapted other lenses - I've used C/Y Zeiss, Nikon and Tamron. But, yes using the excellent old FD lenses is cool and Speedboosted EF is pretty sexy.

    I haven't ever played with speedboosters and since there are optics in the booster I was under the impression there were EF to EF versions that handled the flange depth issue - in part because I have an old FD to EF optical adapter from back in the day where I was trying a little of everything. A quick google indicates I was wrong. I use the 4K scaled APS-C/S35 mode a lot on my R5 so I'll have to get one of the those speedboosters.

    BTW Don't know if you do much with stills but the AF on the R5 really is freaking amazing and works well in video mode too.
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member Michael Hastings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    My words would ring hollow as I'm fairly biased as Komodo has unique features that make it more interesting to me.
    Phil: Your words never ring hollow - you're one of my favorite reads on Reduser and the work you've put into the charts and tests and educational and general commentary are greatly appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bérenger Brillante View Post
    They should have put an SDI output
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    snip: I think SDI up to 4K out is the clear winner between these two. I don't use anything HDMI for professional work, but that's a me thing. Too many broken cables and connectors I've seen. RED Control with live monitoring is a big plus as is the streaming features of Komodo. Certainly capable of live broadcast really. Edge to REDCODE RAW on that front.
    @Berenger and Phil: I like locking BNCs too but I understand why BMD did it. The ATEM mini switchers (starting at $295) that were introduced at the same time are HDMI based and made to allow cheap camcorders to be hooked up. (Truthfully, even cheap 1080P camcorders produce pretty decent pics, for YouTube, corporate, etc.) Also the micro converter HDMI to SDI is only $45, but obviously a kludgy work around. The one thing I've wondered is whether the multi conductor HDMI would have safer grounding vs SDI that people have been worried about getting fried with power connect/disconnects.

    Only having 1080 out on 6KPro is disappointing (since I have 4K out on the other 2 cams I use and a 4K switcher) but honestly so far most live is still doing 1080 - hell, Fox is still broadcasting NFL in 720P.

    On the other side, Komodo is 4K SDI out but AFAIK REDs are still all progressive all the time and that doesn't play very well with the more standard interlaced cameras. I also think the RED progressive isn't compatible with the progressive in the Sony switchable interlace/progressive cams. I did a live shoot where the client insisted on using his RED (DSMC) mixed with other cams and we had to use the Teranex to get it stable enough to feed the satellite truck. So unless it is all RED cams I would expect to have some issues that you need to plan for.

    TBH large sensors aren't very practical for most live shoots - particularly sports - imagine a 100x f1.7 zoom (common in broadcast) for S35 - you'd need a forklift to move it around . Even an 18x like common ENG lenses would be pretty tough. I know NFL films uses Arris but that's not for live - I doubt any S35s are used live except maybe a sideline camera showing the players and coaches.

    Phil: I wasn't sure if you meant using the 4K SDI out for live or the WIFI? Aren't there latency issues? Seems like that would be another headache. With all of the VFX devices, wireless cams, multiple distribution paths, etc. - keeping audio sync to video is already a fairly big headache in the broadcast world.

    Really, neither is likely to be particularly suitable for serious live work.

    The URSA Broadcast that I have ($3495) - 4K with a B4 lens mount and all the traditional buttons, ND wheel, 12G SDI out, flip screen and ACCY. VF, etc. is a much more practical camera for serious live work with an inexpensive camera.

    For example: For corporate work I can do a pretty decent 4K IMAG job with the small 4K flight pack, and one other shooter - one on the URSA on sticks and the Micro 4K on a pan and tilt. I operate the switcher and pan/tilt. The switcher supports talkback and CCU through the SDI and audio mixing. Has eight inputs for cameras, computer for Powerpoint, etc. All for about $14K total investment.
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  3. #13  
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    @Michael Hastings you seem pretty convinced by the BMPCC6KP... why not just buy one? You can always sell it back if you change your mind. Or optionally, rent both and see which you gravitate towards most.
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    I would say for me, since I own a Monstro, is that the color science, Redcode raw workflow (I use a lot FCPX and Blackmagic raw doesn’t play nice) are a big plus vá the Blackmagic.

    The Blackmagic does produce great pictures, but the redcode raw workflow and current ipp2 colors just edge it for me.
    Sérgio Perez

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  5. #15  
    Senior Member Michael Hastings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Vogen View Post
    @Michael Hastings you seem pretty convinced by the BMPCC6KP... why not just buy one? You can always sell it back if you change your mind. Or optionally, rent both and see which you gravitate towards most.
    @Han: Fair point.

    I'm actually leaning back toward Komodo - primarily based on the global shutter, and the RF mounts ability to use speedboosters as @Bill Ravens pointed out that I wasn't aware of and ability to use the PL mount lenses.

    Does anyone know the wait time if you order Komodo now? Seems it is at least a few months.

    Obviously the title of the thread was a bit of a clickbait challenge, but I wasn't wanting to annoy anyone. This thread in part was just to do a deep dive (NPI) into the nuances of each. I don't absolutely have to have either one at the moment. I'd like to stick with RED but I'd also really like RED to get past the modular only concept - a Komodo sensor, RF mount with a bunch of direct access buttons like the BMD (and Sony, Canon, Panasonic, Arri) would be ideal. The Fincher/Bay cams show they can do it.

    We are also getting pretty late in the product cycle and I'm wondering if we are getting close to DSMC3 - seems like pre-covid we were expecting sometime late 2020 early 2021. I know the supply chain issues will be here for a while as to actual full manufacturing production - but covid also may have given the engineering/CAD guys a bit more time to refine things.

    On more of a personal situation:
    I'm not sure how long it will be for dive travel to islands will get back to normal so I may just put everything off and get my knee fixed. Back in 1971 I had a complete rupture of my ACL from football. Had it repaired but it was the dark ages of knee surgery. 3-4 months into recovery, before I was even supposed to start jogging - I witnessed a girl get run over by a car and sprinted to help (she ended up with some broken ribs and tire tracks but otherwise ok.) I knew I'd damaged it but didn't go back to doctor because my coach had already told me if there were any complications he wouldn't let me play my senior year.

    Before MRIs and arthroscopy it was hard to evaluate ligaments. Always thought was just stretched and if you keep the muscles really strong it kind of holds things together, but it tends to bother me more when walking where there isn't the muscle tension. Went for an MRI recently and it came back "no visible ACL" . These days they replace it with a cadaver tendon - drill some holes and screws - and I guess new ligament grows over it - but it's at least 5-6 months before can even think about climbing on and off a dive boat in dive gear.

    Anyway, "Back to our regularly scheduled programming..."
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  6. #16  
    Senior Member Michael Hastings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergio Perez View Post
    I would say for me, since I own a Monstro, is that the color science, Redcode raw workflow (I use a lot FCPX and Blackmagic raw doesn’t play nice) are a big plus vá the Blackmagic.

    The Blackmagic does produce great pictures, but the redcode raw workflow and current ipp2 colors just edge it for me.
    Sergio:

    One of the things I'm not clear on is if the DCT compression in Komodo is just about compression and the overall color science is the same as other REDs or is the Komodo color science all new and different from the wavelet type .R3D?

    A lot of my stuff just gets handed over to the client and I never see it again, so not always up to speed on the editing side. I'm not shooting or editing constantly - building the housings is still my bread and butter. I don't really promote myself as a shooter since I feel like I would be competing with my customers so I only take jobs that "come through the door" so to speak.

    However, I was looking at some old R1 and Epic footage recently that I hadn't seen since the days when you had to tweak everything in REDCINE and it seemed like with the IPP2 it looked pretty great without doing anything. I didn't even know if IPP2 was supposed to work with the old stuff and maybe I just wasn't remembering, but it really seemed pretty good.
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  7. #17  
    Senior Member Jeff Whitehurst's Avatar
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    Seems like the Komodo has significant advantages in regards to underwater use although I have only shot DSMC1/2 UW. I have used the BMPCC6K underwater and found the images quite good when properly exposed.

    The width of a Komodo is 4", the BMPCC6KP is 7.08 (plus the IO is directly on the left side) Quick calculations indicate around 2.5X more air volume in a cylindrical housing required for the BMPCC6KP, with more housing mass and ballast to compensate. Not sure what material sizes you have available, but it seems like you would use 6" diameter for the Komodo, but maybe something around 9-10" diameter for the BMPCC6KP.

    If the BMPCC6KP is used with a battery grip for sufficient power on a dive, the housing diameter must be larger to accommodate the extra height. If something like a V-Mount power brick is used to power camera and/or monitor, it seems to be difficult to mount it with the BMPCC6KP due to the rear built in screen. Komodo could have a V-Mount on camera with a tidy recess under it for IO cables.

    The BMPCC6KP has single function buttons in various places around the camera, so you have to create mechanical control mechanisms that penetrate the hull in various locations and angles.
    The Komodo has a common set of buttons on camera top that control the entire menu structure.

    BRAW files have an post ISO limitation based upon the captured step range. You can choose 100-1000 or 1250-6400 for capture, but you can't adjust ISO outside of the captured gain step range in post. Unless you have a method for changing the BMPCC6KP settings underwater, you are limited to choosing the ISO step range for the entire dive and the editor has limited ability to change it in post.

    BRAW post workflows are still somewhat niche and limited. R3D has matured to be an industry standard GPU accelerated post format.

    Global shutter on Komodo, the rolling shutter on the BMPCC6KP is significant at 20ms 6K RAW.

    Dynamic range on Komodo at ISO800 is 13.6 SNR1 and 12.5 SNR2. In addition the Komodo has a unique in-camera IPP2 highlight recovery algorithm. Cine-D Komodo test
    BMPCC6KP at ISO400 is 12.9 SNR1 and 11.8 stops SNR2 (ISO3200 10 stops SNR2) with highlight recovery in only possible in post. Cine-D BMPCC6KP test

    These same tests how that Komodo has 6 stops under and 1 stop over exposure recovery color latitude. (In addition to in-camera highlight recovery).
    BMPCC6KP has 4 stops under and 4 stops over exposure color latitude.
    For underwater footage I would rather have the Komodo's 6 stop under exposure color recovery latitude.

    Topside monitoring and control with the Komodo is industry standard HD-SDI and Ethernet. With the BMPCC6KP you have USB-C and HDMI, not sure how practical those protocols would be for adaptation to a topside cable tether.

    Speedbooster compatibility and more lens variety on the Komodo. Also noticed that available underwater housings for Komodo have a command wheel for the Vari-ND wheel on a RF-EF mount adaptor.

    Thanks for the post, it's interesting to compare these products for underwater use.
    Jeff
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  8. #18  
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    I own both. And I think there is enough of a cross over to justify both (shared lenses and Cf2 etc)

    I actually prefer using the BM6kpro - it's a grab and go camera with nice ergonomics, menu system and the EVF is great. Komodo still needs to be built up really.

    Bear In mind the Komodo doesn't play ball with the 17-55 so well due to the larger sensor in 6K.

    However the IS on the BM6kpro seems to support all the lenses I've thrown at it. The Komodo definitely doesn't work with all I.S lenses for stabilisation.

    Given the BMP6K is so cheap and does so much for the cash, I'd own both if you can. Share lenses and cards.

    The rolling shutter on the BMP6k does seem worse than average to me. But I don't tend to fling cameras around so it's managable.

    Finally the Red branding still gets me jobs. Some people struggle with BM but I've had no issues.
    Last edited by Tyrone Braithwaite; 05-01-2021 at 01:49 PM.
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  9. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Sergio Perez View Post
    I would say for me, since I own a Monstro, is that the color science, Redcode raw workflow (I use a lot FCPX and Blackmagic raw doesn’t play nice) are a big plus vá the Blackmagic.

    The Blackmagic does produce great pictures, but the redcode raw workflow and current ipp2 colors just edge it for me.
    This is where I’m at with it too. Currently owning a DSMC2 Dragon-X as well as a BMPCC 6K, I’m all too familiar with just how much better and robust the IPP2 R3D is than Braw. There are just too many compromises with Braw by comparison.

    For instance, and the biggest one for me, is that the Pocket 6K is dual gain which at face value seems awesome and a great feature. BUT, the raw workflow is also dual gain (though doesn’t follow the same values for whatever reason), so if you shoot anything over 1000 ISO, even though you’re shooting raw, 1000 ISO is your floor. Same thing for shooting under 1000 ISO, as that is now your ISO ceiling in post. Keep in mind that the second native gain stage on the sensor is 3200, so I have no idea how the dual raw iso values and sensor gain actually reconcile outside of having to refer to or memorize a chart showing how many stops over or under each value supports. Yeah..that’s a pain in the nuts. Especially since 1000 ISO and on either side of it is right in the wheelhouse of where so many of us shoot.

    The Dragon, while it does seem to get noisier quicker is much more linear in its approach as ISO is truly just a metadata value that cam be modified full range in post. Is it at 800, 1600, 400..?....doesn’t matter, just open up that iris and go for it. No charts required.
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  10. #20  
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    Komodo is cool and all, but you wanna know what's really cool? That you can go into any decent camera store and walk out with BMP6k today. LOL.

    Kidding aside, speed in both production and post is 100% in BMP6k's favour (it's ~5sec from off to recording and even a $1k M1 can playback braw 12k full res/full debayer at speed!) Plus it's flat-out easier to use/expose and truly doesn't require any additional rigging (whereas Komodo still kinda does even if it technically doesn't). The dual BPs of Komodo would last way longer though, which is certainly nice for underwater, but braw compression versatility means longer record times on the same amount of media... Can't knock the RF mount though; vND to EF or Speedbooster to EF, or RF to PL with full compatibility.... That's hot.

    While Jeff's underexposure advantage is valid with regular ISO mode, by flipping into LL mode on the BMP6k you'll actually get that -6/+2 but at an even brighter ISO1600 (compared to ISO800 on Komodo). On the flip side, to get -4/+4 on Komodo you gotta rock a whopping ISO3200 (compared to a clean ISO640 on BMP6k). So in terms of exposure versatility, it'd go to the BMP6k. I've yet to see any underwater Gen5 or Komodo footage, but colour is subjective (and with raw can be pushed around quite a bit).

    And counter-point to what Brain is saying, there are exposure compensation controls in NLEs, including Resolve, (literally -5 to +5) which are just as straightforward to use as ISO and independent of the dual gain. But for the record, it's ISO640 for even over/under in regular mode and ISO4000 for even over/under in LL mode (both of which are clean enough to use directly out of the camera). And as always, if you expose willy-nilly in regards to ISO with any RED - including Komodo - you're invariably clipping highlights early (which shouldn't be as much of a problem underwater, but potentially is the rest of the time).

    All that being said, from a underwater housing standpoint, I'd think you'd get more sales for a Komodo housing (but only because my gut is telling me budgeted RED productions would be more inclined to use Komodo as their underwater cam)... Conversely, maybe the popularity of the readily available BMP6k would compensate for that, but if the housing costs more than the camera, I'd imagine a lot of users would shy away from it.

    Speaking of which, have people been asking for one housing over the other? If making housings is your bread and butter, I'd go with whatever camera/market has shown the most interest.
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