Thread: The Queen’s Gambit - Steven Meizler FDTimes Interview

Reply to Thread
Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ... 5678910 LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 97
  1. #81  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    8,982
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacek Zakowicz View Post
    Of course it looks more telephoto. Apples to oranges. Either compare 25mm on lf to 18mm MP on S35 or compare 35mm on lf to 25mm MP on S35. At the same distance. I thought we had that down....
    with 1 stop compensation of course etc, etc...
    It's actually not that far off. The equivalent to a 35mm on Vista in S35 is a 21mm.
    Nick Morrison
    Founder, Director & Lead Creative
    // SMALL GIANT //
    smallgiant.tv
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #82  
    Senior Member Jacek Zakowicz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,519
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post
    It's actually not that far off. The equivalent to a 35mm on Vista in S35 is a 21mm.
    It doesn't really matter as long as the field of view, distance are the same. and the stop compensated.
    S35 standard on film is 18x24. FF is 24x36. The diagonals are 31 and 44. A standard calculation for FL equivalent is multiply the ones FL by the ratio of the two diagonals as applicable. But whatever...You can use all kinds of formats (VV16:9, 2.40:1 etc, etc) and calculations (horizontal, vertical, diagonal). It doesn't matter as long as the (relative) magnification and distance are identical the geometry of an image does not change..
    Jacek Zakowicz, Optitek-dot-org, jacek2@optitek.org
    Professional Broadcast and Digital Cinema Equipment
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #83  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    London UK / Toronto
    Posts
    530
    It's too bad this post got hijacked. I had the pleasure of seeing Steven work on "The Girl Friend Experience " in 2016. Shot on Red Epic Dragon. 99% of the series was shot with only available light and practicals. Histograms I would never have the guts to expose at .. yet it looked amazing. I am a big fan of his work regardless of which lenses and format he chooses.
    Epic Dragon 4470,
    Sony Fx9
    Sony a7rII
    Contax Zeiss Primes
    DanaDolly
    tedparkes@rogers.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #84  
    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Melbourne AU
    Posts
    2,100
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    Would you say that longer focal lengths reduce distortion compared to their wider counterparts in the same series of lenses? Due to how much complicated it is to manufacture wider lenses compared to more normal length lenses?
    If you are talking about barrel and pincushion: no. And even if the answer were yes, you can correct those on most lenses (some complex distortions are not so easy to fix).

    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    Any lens has. It's common practice in still photography to close down until you get things super sharp.
    I was referring to '3D pop' not sharpness. ;-)

    BTW the 75mm Noctilux M is super sharp even wide-open. It's crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    In practice, not exactly if you're interested in matching the out of focus bokeh.

    I produced this demonstration image over three years ago now. In terms of matching the exact look to the best of this particular lens' ability, you'll notice it's 1 and 2/3rds of a stop to get there between these formats.
    Most interesting. I note the inconsistency between the three tiers. S16 -> S35 has a different stop difference than S35 -> VV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Back on topic, I think one of the more interesting decisions Meizler made was the specific rather strong strength of a Black Satin 1 filter. I think that was a pretty bold choice and well suited for the series.

    It's beautifully shot with lots of considerations. Love the balance of how they lit to how they exposed. I'd say depth without distractions.
    I agree with that, from what I've seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post
    Yes formats have nothing todo with distortion. But focal length does.

    An 18mm prime at S35 has more distortion than a 35mm prime on Vista. It's just optics. It's one of the advantges of working on large format sensors, you tend to use longer lenses that by their design have less distortion. Most lenses from 35mm on up on Vista have very little distortion, if any at all.
    The equivalents are more like 18 and 28, not 18 and 35. In any case, focal length has zero effect on perspective distortion. Only distance-to-subject affects it. It is not my opinion, it's a fact.

    VV has its place, though, for genuine reasons, not imagined ones. You can't (yet) find an 8K S35 sensor as good as Monstro.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Parkes View Post
    It's too bad this post got hijacked. I had the pleasure of seeing Steven work on "The Girl Friend Experience " in 2016. Shot on Red Epic Dragon. 99% of the series was shot with only available light and practicals. Histograms I would never have the guts to expose at .. yet it looked amazing. I am a big fan of his work regardless of which lenses and format he chooses.
    It wasn't hijacked. Meizler said something technically incorrect that I questioned, and we are discussing it. I also learned something (again) from Phil, which was a bonus.

    You can be wrong on technology but still be an excellent DP. Wally Pfister once said that anamorphic 35 was equivalent to 8K. He was wrong, but that's life.
    Good production values may not be noticed. Bad production values will be.
    Unsplash | Pinterest | Flickr | Instagram | 1961 (blog)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #85  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    8,982
    Quote Originally Posted by Karim D. Ghantous View Post
    The equivalents are more like 18 and 28, not 18 and 35. In any case, focal length has zero effect on perspective distortion. Only distance-to-subject affects it. It is not my opinion, it's a fact.
    Yes but the design of an actual lens also has an affect on distortion. Meizler specifically mentions that the 35mm Supreme (a modern lens) has less distortion than an 18mm Super Speed (from the 70's), which is why he preferred it. There are practical realities on set that have nothing todo with pure math.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karim D. Ghantous View Post
    VV has its place, though, for genuine reasons, not imagined ones. You can't (yet) find an 8K S35 sensor as good as Monstro.
    Monstro is an 8K VV sensor, it's not a S35 sensor.
    Nick Morrison
    Founder, Director & Lead Creative
    // SMALL GIANT //
    smallgiant.tv
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #86  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,783
    Quote Originally Posted by Karim D. Ghantous View Post
    If you are talking about barrel and pincushion: no. And even if the answer were yes, you can correct those on most lenses (some complex distortions are not so easy to fix).
    The sum of artefacts that a lens gets when manufacturing pieces of glass that need to be extremely protruding and rounded in order to get extremely wide does indeed affect image quality compared to longer lenses in the same series. If you have a smaller sensor, that extreme glass-making gets even more extreme in order to get to ultra-wide FOVs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Morrison View Post
    There are practical realities on set that have nothing todo with pure math.
    This right here is what I think is the core of all the misconceptions and problems in this discussion. Just calculating the math, just cross-checking numbers between two sensor systems and lenses or circumstantial tests that exclude other practical realities is insufficient to conclude FF is irrelevant. Sometimes I wonder if people have even worked with different sensors and lenses before commenting? If they've tested differences in image quality between lens series, lenses within a serie, and how they perform on different sensor sizes?

    As you say, the design of the actual lens, actual glass can have huge implications for how it performs. A modern top-tier cine lens for FF performs a lot better than older lenses, but from my own experience with lenses on the wide side, there are lots of differences even within the same series of lenses. It's extremely hard to make wide-angle lenses, which is why it's so uncommon to see unified T-stops at the wide side. And if a lens needs to go almost fisheye to compensate a loss in FOV in order to compare to a longer lens on FF and at the same time match the focus plane depth and bokeh, that glass will definitely affect the image quality in a number of ways.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600 Red Komodo #002397
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #87  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    8,982
    Quote Originally Posted by Karim D. Ghantous View Post
    If you are talking about barrel and pincushion: no. And even if the answer were yes, you can correct those on most lenses (some complex distortions are not so easy to fix).
    I did want to speak to this. This idea you can easily correct a lot of distortion (which is relevant to the S35 vs FF discussion).

    That distortion is easy to fix is true in the stills world. Most apps easily correct for this.

    In motion, not the case. Most motion shoots (certainly the 200 I have produced and/or directed) are about quickly delivering professional raw footage and/or dailies to clients. There's no time on set to fix barrel distortion. In fact, it almost never gets registered.

    A high-end DIT (esp on a VFX driven job) may do lens tests before shooting, in order to adjust for distortion in dailies and/or pass on the info to VFX teams.

    But most distortion gets baked in.

    So what Meizler chose to do (shoot on a 35mm Supreme on Monstro) instead of shooting on an 18mm Super Speed on S35 makes sense. He wanted to palpably avoid distortion. He says so himself:

    "I liked the 35mm and the 25mm. One of the reasons we were using Large Format was to get very close to the chess board without having distortion.

    If we were shooting Super35, the equivalent would have been an 18mm ZEISS Super Speed and it would look a lot different. Not having that distortion was a big part of it"
    .
    One things folks have to take into account is the big difference btw a commercial workflow, and longform workflow.

    When you're shooting a 30sec commercial, you can assume they can fix a ton in post. Your colorist and VFX artists can "do a lot" with the footage you give them, because in the end it's usually not that many shots - 20 shots usually, and the entire project spans 30secs.

    But in longform - especially a TV show - they are delivering a 10-20hr product. A lot of episodes have ONE DAY for final color. That's the same (or less) than a commercial. They just don't have time (or budget) to fix lots of small things. This is why choices like lens diffusion become so important. Meizler yes did the very bold choice of using Black Satin 1 (very strong, most use a 1/4 or 1/2). But he was creating a look in camera, as you really need to do in longform.

    So yeah, in longform, the odds of something like distortion being fixed down stream are much lower. You really need to think about your choices in camera.

    Which Meizler clearly did when he favored the look of a Monstro and longer, modern glass.
    Nick Morrison
    Founder, Director & Lead Creative
    // SMALL GIANT //
    smallgiant.tv
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #88  
    Senior Member Jacek Zakowicz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    3,519
    But why insist on vintage lenses if one does not want distortion? Why not just use contemporary lenses? It makes no sense...
    Jacek Zakowicz, Optitek-dot-org, jacek2@optitek.org
    Professional Broadcast and Digital Cinema Equipment
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #89  
    Senior Member Nick Morrison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    8,982
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacek Zakowicz View Post
    But why insist on vintage lenses if one does not want distortion? Why not just use contemporary lenses? It makes no sense...
    I think his point was about size? A Super Speed 18mm is very small. He likes that, for how he works. The Zeiss full frame Supremes are also quite small, so I think that was part of the allure?

    But I see your point. Maybe Master Primes felt to big, etc?
    Nick Morrison
    Founder, Director & Lead Creative
    // SMALL GIANT //
    smallgiant.tv
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #90  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    12,100
    I think for those who have done these sort of tests, often before any production, looking at all 18mm lenses available for a given format as well as subsequent decisions likely based on the rest of the glass being used for a shoot you'll find more of the answers you're looking for as to why some of the lens choices were made here.

    i.e. Usually I try to shoot on one set of glass that works for most of a production.

    If everybody liked what the Supremes, S7s, Sigies, Sigmammas, Tokies, etc did specifically we all would be using the same glass. But DPs don't exactly work that way. Especially in a minefield riddled with so many interesting glass options.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
    ________________________________
    phfx.com IMDB
    PHFX | tools

    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies, 1X RED Komodo, and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts