Thread: Desaturated shadows?

Reply to Thread
Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 95
  1. #51  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Toronto & Vancouver
    Posts
    4,175
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjrn Benckert View Post
    That would not make sense. How would people work with Panavision material if it was not r3ds like any onther r3ds. And people have reverse engineered out the DXL look out of DIT software that had the DXL2 look built in and made separate lut out of it.
    The official direct-from-panavision LUTs only work properly when bypassing IPP2 transforms (tone map/highlight roll-off), and I was told they did it precisely to remove potential confusion surrounding IPP2's implementation. Further, their LUTs also boost the image by about a stop out of the gate (which I thought was to match meters in loo of ISOCal2, but apparently was to compensate for Log3G10s lower/33ire mid-grey compared to RLF). They even include a RWG/REDlogFilm>709 LUT too. In other words, they wanted it to act more like an Arri, without a secondary (and somewhat ambiguous) transform causing potential problems for everyone who was used to a typical log workflow.

    The DXL2 quick set-up guide says: "Some RED cameras allow for user-defined tone mapping which will trace in metadata. DXL does not integrate these features but your DI system may default to medium and impact how the highlights react." And that quote is next to a screenshot of the raw settings in Resolve, with an arrow pointing to the Tonemap/Highlight roll-off selections.
    Last edited by Mike P.; 03-07-2021 at 09:41 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #52  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,755
    Quote Originally Posted by James Sielaff View Post
    I'll try doing a few specific tests at some point this week on the Gemini, and send you some R3D Chris.

    Up to this point, I figured it was just my lack of post workflow knowledge, but also beginning to realize maybe this is all interconnected to some of the issues I see on the production side. Will be good to figure this out.
    That would be great to have. I also have a few shots here and there from other productions that I'm testing out. Still would be nice to hear from Red and Graeme regarding all of this, as he sits on the actual code of everything.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600 Red Komodo #002397
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #53  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,755
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    In other words, they wanted it to act more like an Arri, without a secondary (and somewhat ambiguous) transform causing potential problems for everyone who was used to a typical log workflow.
    Gahh... I would just love for them to open up this color science, like paying a license to have it with regular Red's.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600 Red Komodo #002397
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #54  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Toronto & Vancouver
    Posts
    4,175
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    Gahh... I would just love for them to open up this color science, like paying a license to have it with regular Red's.
    It's all on their DXL page.

    Of the samples they include in the pack (all Monstro, no Dragon VV) three are LLO OLPF and only one is PX Pro.
    Last edited by Mike P.; 03-07-2021 at 09:50 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #55  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,755
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    It's all on their DXL page.

    Of the samples they include in the pack (all Monstro, no Dragon VV) three are LLO OLPF and only one is PX Pro.
    Those LUTs act a bit weird. Elevated blacks etc. Are these intended as a starting point or as a pure transform?
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600 Red Komodo #002397
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #56  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,755
    Tinkering further on my own LUT I encountered this...



    When using RWG / LOG3G10, there seem to be some weird behavior of certain highlights. In this case, check the green falling through the bottom of the LOG in the greens. The behavior of the tail-light is extreme and is even worse trying to grade from.
    In the IPP2 transform with soft or very soft highlights, those mitigate this thing, but I can't seem to roll off this part of the image directly from the LOG3G10.

    Keeping RWG but changing LOG to BT1886 or 2048 shows that it is possible to mitigate this extreme, but it's not a solution.

    BT1886



    HDR2048




    Why is LOG3G10 doing this to the RWG material? It seriously messes up any LUT built from it. The IPP2 transform LUTs works just like the internal raw settings, so there should be a way to counter this, not sure how though.
    Even weirder, when I pick at the point on the tail-light that goes under the greens in LOG3G10, this then appears above in the IPP2 transform.

    LOG3g10



    IPP2 Medium Very Soft

    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600 Red Komodo #002397
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #57  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Toronto & Vancouver
    Posts
    4,175
    Quote Originally Posted by Christoffer Glans View Post
    Those LUTs act a bit weird. Elevated blacks etc. Are these intended as a starting point or as a pure transform?
    LOL! Not the magic bullet you were hoping for, huh? (wouldn't elevated blacks very much help this alleged Komodo low-end saturation issue?)

    It's their default normalization LUTs that come loaded in the camera; pretty sure they're intended to help get optimal exposure and be used for a decent out of the gate look.

    Conversely, because it's Panavision, I'd also presume they expect a fully-fledged colour session to eventually happen (besides, it's easy enough to drop the black point). It wrangles greens really well in the skin tones though, which should also really help Komodo (and helium).
    Last edited by Mike P.; 03-07-2021 at 12:32 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #58  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,755
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    LOL! Not the magic bullet you were hoping for, huh? (wouldn't elevated blacks very much help this alleged Komodo low-end saturation issue?)

    It's their default normalization LUTs that come loaded in the camera; pretty sure they're intended to help get optimal exposure and be used for a decent out of the gate look.

    Conversely, because it's Panavision, I'd also presume they expect a fully-fledged colour session to eventually happen (besides, it's easy enough to drop the black point). It wrangles greens really well in the skin tones though, which should also really help Komodo (and helium).
    Didn't expect a magic bullet, but that the transform works more in line with how the IPP2s do it, meaning expanding everything and not just a semi-LOG. It's alright though, as long as it's intended as a pre-LUT in this purpose, then it's possible to construct your own look out of it and it acting as a good basis. However, it's not a decent look out of the gate, it looks too "LOG" and I wouldn't use these in any camera really. So I'm wondering how they are used on set?

    DXL LI LUT



    DXL My LUT



    It also doesn't work when encountering the problem with LOG3G10 grading.

    LOG3G10 problem with the DXL LUT

    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600 Red Komodo #002397
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #59  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Toronto & Vancouver
    Posts
    4,175
    It looks like all the HDR2048/BT1886 is doing is desaturating the whole highlight to put in those colour space gamuts... that's not exactly solving the problem.

    Conversely, even after the IPP2 transform (or LiColour LUT), you still have to output to a given colour/gammaspace (e.g. 709 or 2020 or P3), so it'd do the same thing at that step anyway. (Or am I missing the point?)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #60  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts
    4,755
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike P. View Post
    It looks like all the HDR2048/BT1886 is doing is desaturating the whole highlight to put in those colour space gamuts... that's not exactly solving the problem.

    Conversely, even after the IPP2 transform (or LiColour LUT), you still have to output to a given colour/gammaspace (e.g. 709 or 2020 or P3), so it'd do the same thing at that step anyway. (Or am I missing the point?)
    No, it's something else going on here. When I choose RWG/LOG3G10, it creates this problem. If I instead choose RWG/BT1886 or any other except RWG/Linear it fixes the weird color glitch. If I then choose to keep LOG3G10 and choose something like REC709/LOG3G10 or any of the other color spaces instead of RWG it fixes the glitch. The output is 709 for all of these.

    Check out the scopes where the green is under the baseline.

    Here's a R3D trim from that shot. Try and grade from a RWG/LOG3G10 and get that tail-light fixed, not sure how to do it.

    https://we.tl/t-PH3y1BG2dS

    EDIT:

    Update to this, if I change white balance, this only occurs around 3200K, but as soon as I'm going further or under that the scopes shows it fixed and it looks more "normal".

    3200K



    4100K

    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
    Red Weapon 6K #00600 Red Komodo #002397
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts