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  1. #1 Desaturated shadows? 
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    So, after many tests, I've seen something keep appearing in regular grades and IPP2 conversions. The shadows of a shot from Komodo seem to lose a lot of colors. It feels like at the lower end, colors lose a lot of color information and things get very "muddy" and grey instead of rolling off nicely. I'm not sure if this is due to IPP2 or what is going on. I've tried to look at a number of different displays, but see it on them all.

    To illustrate, here's a cutout of one shot.



    There's no real pushed grades here, just a regular IPP2 Rec709 conversion, but notice how the yellow pillow's darker areas just lose the yellow color as soon as it gets under a certain luminance level. And other areas of the image that just gets "patchy".

    If this is just a conversation thing and there are methods to get rid of it, that would be good to know, because whenever I do low key stuff it feels like the entire image gets a bit blotchy with desaturated areas that should roll off a bit nicer than they do. Don't really notice this on my Dragon.
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  2. #2  
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    We can punch that up in post. I generally tell people to watch the key-to-fill ratio and fill a little more, knowing we can crush it down more in post if we need it. Of course, tests will give you the best answers. Assuming this is what you're using, I wouldn't look on Red Cine-X Pro as anything but a temp dailies tool -- but it's fine for that.
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  3. #3  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
    We can punch that up in post. I generally tell people to watch the key-to-fill ratio and fill a little more, knowing we can crush it down more in post if we need it. Of course, tests will give you the best answers. Assuming this is what you're using, I wouldn't look on Red Cine-X Pro as anything but a temp dailies tool -- but it's fine for that.
    It's not really about having fill lights and such, some shots need to be low-key and you can't get shots without shadows anywhere, there will always be contrast. Desaturation of the low end is very visible on faces where the skin tones just take a deep dive into nothing at a certain shadow value.



    I'm not sure what is going on here, because it seems like the tonal curve just goes down close to shadows and then hard cuts to pure black from being a grey mess. Tried to counter this by grading from a scratch LOG3G10 starting point, but even if it's possible to smooth out the shadow curve, there are no colors there.

    We know that Komodo doesn't use colors at its last stop of highlights because it's generally unnecessary since it roll off the highlights. But for low key it's much more visible if it does so there as well. There seem to be a cutoff point where colors just disappear and it creates a color hard edge look to the roll-off into shadows. Instead of nuances going into pure black, color cuts off before it should and it doesn't look so good.

    So how can this be countered in post? Are there any errors to the IPP2 conversion that needs a firmware update or something? I'm not sure how to counter this and it makes low-key shots look rather dull. Komodo handles really well in high key, but low key dark shots become a grey mess.
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    Senior Member Tommaso Alvisi's Avatar
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    Noticed the same thing and stopped using Komodo, probably it's a similar approach to the last stop of the HLs like you mention, probably to keep chroma noise under control, but at the expense of lack of chroma info in the shadows in general.
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  5. #5  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommaso Alvisi View Post
    Noticed the same thing and stopped using Komodo, probably it's a similar approach to the last stop of the HLs like you mention, probably to keep chroma noise under control, but at the expense of lack of chroma info in the shadows in general.
    Did you notice this in comparison to any DSMC2s? I would wish to hear from Red about this. Is it hardcoded into the hardware or can this be improved with firmware updates? This is by far the worst thing I've seen about the image out of Komodo so I really hope it can be fixed in some way.
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  6. #6  
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    ive seen this happen on exports from dsmc2 ipp2 cameras. generally it is very dark low contrast part of the image. ive only done this in Davinci Resolve.

    what is your conversion process?
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  7. #7  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Doesn't matter really, you can see it in-camera. Did some test shots of changing aperture and on the built-in screen, my link cabled iPhone, in Resolve when playing the material and in the export. Here's an example of it, especially the blue sofa textile losing saturation at an almost sharp edge. There's no roll-off for saturation at all.



    Can someone at Red maybe explain this? Because it doesn't look good and especially in a low-key shot if the face of an actor gets this edge cut-off, it doesn't look good at all. As long as this isn't hardcoded into the sensor in some way, it should be addressed in an update to the color science.
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  8. #8  
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    have you not talked to red tech support first?
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  9. #9  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Sielaff View Post
    have you not talked to red tech support first?

    If it's something that all cameras have because it's part of Komodo's design, Red tech support can't do much about it. This needs to be addressed by the ones who designed how the saturation curve works over the DR range.
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  10. #10  
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    Red has some issue with color space conversations, as can be noted in this thread about the EVF imaging chain:

    http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...91#post1924791


    maybe all of this is interrelated somehow. the evf has an exagerated version of what you are showing in your clips.
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