Thread: What's a Master Prime in Full-Frame world?

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  1. #1 What's a Master Prime in Full-Frame world? 
    What's the closest thing to a Master Prime or Ultra Prime that covers Full Frame?

    That can match the kind of contrast and sharpness you get from these lenses.
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  2. #2  
    Arri Signature Prime. Leica Thalia. Cooke S7.

    Tokina Vista is a step down in absolute resolution, but several steps down in cost.
    Michael Tiemann, Chapel Hill NC

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  3. #3  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Vistas out resolve both Thalias and S7s FYI, at least all 3 sets of those I've seen. Moderate wash on the Signature Primes as they are pretty good. Zeiss Supremes likely should be in the mix obviously. Then Sigma Cine.
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  4. #4  
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    The Vista Primes continue to amaze me. I’d buy signature primes but they don’t make sense for my market. I like the vistas better than anything short of the master or signature.
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    Senior Member Karim D. Ghantous's Avatar
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    Call me naive, and perhaps a smart-alec, but why not use a teleconverter and call it a day? Anyway, do you really want to shoot Vistavision at T1.3? I sure wouldn't!
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  6. #6  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karim D. Ghantous View Post
    Call me naive, and perhaps a smart-alec, but why not use a teleconverter and call it a day? Anyway, do you really want to shoot Vistavision at T1.3? I sure wouldn't!
    I use an expander when I roll with S35 glass, but that comes at costs in the form of light loss and additional optical hits. I happily shoot wide open on high speed modern primes as the occasional calls for it both in light gathering as well as generally mood. Though most of the time I'm stopped down. And the nice juice you find when stopping a faster prime down 2-3 stops is very different than say a 2 or 2.8 starting point.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies, 1X RED Komodo, and a lot of things to use with them.

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    Red Dragon
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  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Vistas out resolve both Thalias and S7s FYI, at least all 3 sets of those I've seen. Moderate wash on the Signature Primes as they are pretty good. Zeiss Supremes likely should be in the mix obviously. Then Sigma Cine.
    I was going by these projection tests:

    https://www.sharegrid.com/learn/lens-sets/cooke-s7-i
    https://www.sharegrid.com/learn/lens-sets/leitz-thalia
    https://www.sharegrid.com/learn/lens-sets/tokina-vista

    I own a full set (*) of Vista Primes, so not looking to knock them. But:

    More than half of tested Signature Primes projected 200 lp/mm in the field WFO. Wow.
    Thalia achieved 200 lp/mm in one case and not less than 140 lp/mm in the field WFO.
    s7 was split 50/50 between 100 and 140 lp/mm in the field WFO.

    Of these four lens sets, only Tokina fielded a lens (50mm) that did not resolve 200 lp/mm in the center, and a lens (35mm) that did not resolve 100 lp/mm in the field, neither WFO nor T2.8.

    In fairness, for this list, only Vista Primes achieve T1.5. Thalia is only T2.6. With a wider aperture, minimal CA, minimal breathing, and a cost that's 1/3 to 1/4 the competition, you can see why I chose to buy a complete set and not worry too much about projection results from a single lens test on a single day in July of 2020.

    In my own testing, I will say that there is a degree of field curvature that makes the wide lenses not really suitable for punching in to images at the edges (center punch-ins are fine). And due to the use of mechanically-tooled extreme aspherical elements, large bokeh patterns show tooling marks that sometimes need to be cleaned up. But I've gotten so used to their strengths that when I do use a lens that breathes, I find it disorienting until I remember "oh yes, that used to be normal." They are phenomenal lenses, especially on Monstro.

    (*) 18mm, 25mm, 35mm, 40mm, 50mm, 65mm, 85mm, 105mm, 135mm
    Michael Tiemann, Chapel Hill NC

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  8. #8  
    This may get some snickers and laughs, but don’t forget that the first season of Altered Carbon used Canon CN-E primes and Cooke S4/S5’s on the Alexa 65. I only bring this up because Phil mentioned the Sigma Cine primes and I think the Sigma’s and Canon’s match/intercut well. Both have good sharpness, contrast and skin tones.
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  9. #9  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    I was going off what we measured at Duclos, Koerner, and even the manufacturers numbers, but I wasn't there for the portion of the lp/mm tests. I've never seen anything close to a 35lp/mm measurement on these across the field. Which makes me think more or less something is strange with the lens itself.

    I have seen some grinding related things on some Tokinas, but it's similar to other aspherics. Seems those are tricky.

    The tertiary points to be made here is which sets have other characteristics such as pleasing lens flare, micro contrast, etc. Somewhere in there all three of these sets have nice unique character.
    Phil Holland - Cinematographer - Los Angeles
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    2X RED Monstro 8K VV Bodies, 1X RED Komodo, and a lot of things to use with them.

    Data Sheets and Notes:
    Red Weapon/DSMC2
    Red Dragon
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  10. #10  
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    Ziess Otus? Not a full set just 28, 55, 85 .
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