Thread: Red Control performance

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  1. #1 Red Control performance 
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Waiting for more solutions to monitoring questions due to the high risk of using the built-in SDI, I'm trying to optimize using Komodo Link.

    Problem is that the performance of the video feed is very underwhelming. I've updated to the latest firmware of both the Komodo and Red Control, but nothing changed the feed performance. Now, this isn't about the quality of the video, the setting you can change in the Komodo menu, but the framerate consistency of the feed.
    There's a noticeable delay that I think is close to impossible to get rid of, but that is not the problem. The video feed stutters and "jumps" due to frame skipping and it is close to unreliable to use this as a monitoring device. This occurs on both iPhone and Android, so that's not the issue either.

    It's bad at 25 and 24fps, but it's even more noticeable when overcranking. If shooting anything at 40 fps, it's close to unusable. A reminder: the Komodo Link is an expensive add-on to the camera and all it really does not is to erase wifi interrupts happening, that's it. There's no change to the video feed on Komodo Link compared to a stable wifi signal. So the only reason to get it is because wifi performance is bad, not that you get some better performance boost out of it.

    So my question is, will this improve? Is it possible to optimize the firmware to get a consistent 24/25fps feed that does not stutter or frameskip? And what about overcranking, can we get raw framerates through the Komodo Link? Because we need raw framerates, not interpretations of framerates which leads to frame skipping.

    Another thing is the lack of a monitor-only mode and proper lock. On Android especially, you can't lock the phone to not turn when turning the phone, which means that every time you accidentally turn the camera or hold the camera in the side handle and pull it up to take a shot, the app has reset to show all the features with just a small video window. So you need to enlarge it back to full screen. This is seriously slowing down workflows. Just make a switch on the home screen of Red Control to lock it into full-screen mode without settings. If you need settings you just flip that switch back to normal.


    I think that the next firmware of Komodo and Red Control really needs to address these things. Frame skipping almost makes the Komodo Link setup with Red Control unusable as a reliable monitoring solution and the lack of a monitor-only mode makes the workflow very impractical and slow. The potential of using a phone as a monitor with Komodo Link is one of the best things about Komodo, but not if it's like it is at the moment. The potential is there, but it needs some serious tweaking and I hope this is a priority issue now.

    EDIT: seems like landscape lock is indeed implemented in the Red Control updates, so that's one issue gone, credit to Mikael for that.
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  2. #2  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Here's an example of overcranked performance:

    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
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  3. #3  
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    How do you rate performance using the Hydrogen phone Vs a contemporary iOS device ?

    One thing I’m curious about is if the Komodo is using a Snapdragon SOC rather than a much more expensive to fab custom ASIC and fewer or zero FPGAs? Nothing to do with your phone decode performance (which is essentially what you’re dissatisfied with besides the functionality requests of rotation locking in the app)

    A deeper question I would have concerning the Komodo to Phone/Tablet protocol is :

    Are they using UVC protocol carrying an MPEG variant, or are they using an NDI prototocol?

    I would almost certainly guess the UVC (usb video class) which is essentially the backbone of many USB 2.0 webcams and similar devices .
    I would be surprised, but maybe in a good way if they are using an NDI (or similar ) style codec/protocol.
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Kanes View Post
    How do you rate performance using the Hydrogen phone Vs a contemporary iOS device ?

    One thing I’m curious about is if the Komodo is using a Snapdragon SOC rather than a much more expensive to fab custom ASIC and fewer or zero FPGAs? Nothing to do with your phone decode performance (which is essentially what you’re dissatisfied with besides the functionality requests of rotation locking in the app)

    A deeper question I would have concerning the Komodo to Phone/Tablet protocol is :

    Are they using UVC protocol carrying an MPEG variant, or are they using an NDI prototocol?

    I would almost certainly guess the UVC (usb video class) which is essentially the backbone of many USB 2.0 webcams and similar devices .
    I would be surprised, but maybe in a good way if they are using an NDI (or similar ) style codec/protocol.
    I have no idea, I just know that the performance of frame rate consistency is bad and it stutters like hell, especially at overcranking (in the video you can see the built in LCD vs Hydrogen).
    There's no difference to this between iOS and Android.
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  5. #5  
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    Don't have an exact answer. I had an issue like many where if I got a few feet away from the camera with my iPad the would drop the frame rates dramatically or or just stop. I solved this issue by using my TP-link AC-750 portable wifi router and attached that to the camera rig. Now I can have someone Run/Stop the camera make adjustments from a distance and view the footage with clients without serious jumping. But I would say that my playback rate even 30 feet away is identical to what you are seeing now.
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  6. #6  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Wikstrom View Post
    Don't have an exact answer. I had an issue like many where if I got a few feet away from the camera with my iPad the would drop the frame rates dramatically or or just stop. I solved this issue by using my TP-link AC-750 portable wifi router and attached that to the camera rig. Now I can have someone Run/Stop the camera make adjustments from a distance and view the footage with clients without serious jumping. But I would say that my playback rate even 30 feet away is identical to what you are seeing now.
    But, this doesn't have to do with wifi performance. Komodo Link shows that the stutters and frame rate consistency is the same even with a cable connection. You don't get connection interrupts with Komodo Link, but the framerate consistency and "smoothness" of video feed is the same between wifi and cable. So the issue is somewhere else, not in the connection/wifi signal.
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  7. #7  
    Moderator Phil Holland's Avatar
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    Grab somebody with a new iPhone or top of the line Samsung. You'll notice the more powerful phones have better performance. Hydrogen works fine, but it's a few generations back and H2 never was a reality sadly.

    Observational things that I see make a difference. Processing power, RAM, and likely the quality of the WiFi antennae. When I first got my Komodo I tested I think 5 phones with it, I would have to go back and check, but I'm currently on the Samsung Galaxy Note Ultra 20.

    Newest top of the line iPhone and Note Ultra smartphones allow for closer to SDI-like performance, but not quite.

    Other than that, drop the quality of the feed down via the Komodo menu.
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  8. #8  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Holland View Post
    Grab somebody with a new iPhone or top of the line Samsung. You'll notice the more powerful phones have better performance. Hydrogen works fine, but it's a few generations back and H2 never was a reality sadly.

    Observational things that I see make a difference. Processing power, RAM, and likely the quality of the WiFi antennae. When I first got my Komodo I tested I think 5 phones with it, I would have to go back and check, but I'm currently on the Samsung Galaxy Note Ultra 20.

    Newest top of the line iPhone and Note Ultra smartphones allow for closer to SDI-like performance, but not quite.

    Other than that, drop the quality of the feed down via the Komodo menu.
    Stutters and frame rate inconsistencies are the same regardless of phone and it's not about WIFI connectivity issues but the performance of Komodo Link as a monitor option. I've tested and the consistency is not there, not as a critical monitor option worth the investment of Komodo Link. Not at this time. The stutters and performance can be seen when streaming to desktops as well.

    As I mentioned in the OP, this is not about wireless connectivity issues, it's about the framerate consistency being low and the inability to show framerates based on the framerate chosen. It's somehow interpolating or producing a converted stream of frames.

    A new iPhone with the Komodo Link should at least have a consistent framerate. If I put it to 25fps there should not be frame drops, there shouldn't be any stutters or bad performance of the frame buffer. I rather have medium quality and better framerate than high quality and bad framerate, because it affects the "performance" of me as a cinematographer/operator. I cannot see if a pan or movement captured was what I intended. This gets painfully worse when overcranking since Komodo Link or the Red Control app puts some average interpretation of a higher framerate. Monitoring 40 fps is converted to 25 fps, introducing unusable monitoring behavior.

    The stutters and frame drops are a problem based on how Komodo and Red Control interact with each other. And the price of Komodo Link should demand consistent quality, not "the same" as going wireless, which renders Komodo Link irrelevant for anything other than niche edge cases of ethernet use of Komodo.


    If this is impossible to fix, then Red should just make their own monitor that works with Komodo Link but at a higher quality than what phones can do (being as it would act as a dedicated monitor). Right now, because we don't have a module with SDI that can take the damage if that happens, we are either forced to risk damage to the SDI board but have a good quality monitoring solution, or we have to film with extreme frame lag, stutters and lack of motion consistency. We at least need a fix for one of these monitor options.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
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  9. #9  
    there is a lock in horisontal mode in the first menu of red control...
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  10. #10  
    Senior Member Christoffer Glans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Björn Benckert View Post
    there is a lock in horisontal mode in the first menu of red control...
    Yes, put that in the edit comment.
    "Using any digital cinema camera today is like sending your 35mm rolls to a standard lab. -Using a Red is like owning a dark room."
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